3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I don't see CFD in the features list on their website. I'll pass.

CFD??

37 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

CFD??

Computational Fluid Dynamics?  I never though I would see the day someone would say they wouldn't buy a plane because it isn't included.  

4 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I don't see CFD in the features list on their website. I'll pass.

From what I've heard from the flight model experts, CFD is overrated and creates a lot of issues.

If the plane flies by the numbers and feels like a light GA I'm all in.

1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

Computational Fluid Dynamics?  I never though I would see the day someone would say they wouldn't buy a plane because it isn't included.  

Well, there's a first time for everything 🙂

Coming from A2A Sims, MilViz Advanced, Majestic Q400, and the similarly High Fidelity addons in X-Plane and DCS World, I'm not willing to put up with the overly-mechanical response/movement of non-CFD addons in MSFS any longer.

1 hour ago, ryanbatc said:

From what I've heard from the flight model experts, CFD is overrated and creates a lot of issues.

If the plane flies by the numbers and feels like a light GA I'm all in.

You mean the Experts like Asobo themselves? They developed CFD/NPS/SBS precisely to get their C172 G1000 to "feel like a light GA".

In fact, CFD/NPS/SBS is so important to "feel" that helos had to wait years until it was in before Asobo even bothered with them. Previously, almost all 3rd party helos flew pretty much like they did in FSX/P3D - like an elevator. Or a honky tonk mechanical bull - take your pick. 

The commentary I've seen from expert developers isn't at all that CFD is overrated, it's simply that it doesn't fit their development methodology. E.g., SWS, Just Flight, and BlackBird (nee MilViz); all of whom are devs who are used to developing flight models in FSX/P3D.

CFD isn't at all a panacea, in that it doesn't function well if you just enable it. Particularly if you enable it when you've already spent considerable time on the traditional FM (this straight from SWS).

There are PLENTY of anecdotes that have leaked out over time about how many compromises the devs have to make with MSFS' traditional FM (such as IFT's VariEze, because MSFS doesn't actually support canard planforms for the FM), etc.

So, here I sit, (im)patiently waiting for A2A Sims to release their Comanche, and in the meantime, I get by with with a handful of addons from Asobo, iniBuilds, Flying Iron Sims, Got Friends, and a few other freeware devs who have taken the time to develop their FMs using CFD - and for me, there's just no going back..

Because "by the numbers" doesn't necessarily cover what happens between the points on the performance chart. 

 

Edited June 13, 20232 yr by UrgentSiesta

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

You mean the Experts like Asobo themselves? They developed CFD/NPS/SBS precisely to get their C172 G1000 to "feel like a light GA".

Interesting... I just flew their C172 G1000 and C172 SP, one after the other... they both fly nicely and I do not detect a difference..  What should I be looking for?

14 hours ago, Bert Pieke said:

Interesting... I just flew their C172 G1000 and C172 SP, one after the other... they both fly nicely and I do not detect a difference..  What should I be looking for?

It's possible Asobo has finally enabled CFD for the Steam Gauge variant, IDK because I never fly it because at first, it didn't have CFD and there was quite a noticeable difference.

I find it most noticeable when relatively low and slow - such as when practicing airport patterns and the aircraft is moving through various configs and quickly transitioning across different speeds.

It basically comes down to "fluidity" of movement, inertia, and response to external forces. As previously stated, the traditional FM results in highly mechanistic/"robotic"/jerky responses to control inputs, even in otherwise excellent addons like the C310.

Perhaps fly one of the non-CFD defaults and it should be plainly noticeable?

Or, give X-Plane a try 😉

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by UrgentSiesta

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

It's possible Asobo has finally enabled CFD for the Steam Gauge variant, IDK because I never fly it because at first, it didn't have CFD and there was quite a noticeable difference.

The steam gauge C172 does not have CFD enabled, so I should be able to compare the two for the effect..

I'll do some more testing, but cannot say I noticed a difference. 😉

Edit:  I copied over the G1000 flight model cfg file to the SP version, so I can fly both with "CFD enabled".. so far, so good.

Maybe FS2024 will give us some more flight model goodies.. 🙂

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by Bert Pieke

17 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

You mean the Experts like Asobo themselves? They developed CFD/NPS/SBS precisely to get their C172 G1000 to "feel like a light GA".

In fact, CFD/NPS/SBS is so important to "feel" that helos had to wait years until it was in before Asobo even bothered with them. Previously, almost all 3rd party helos flew pretty much like they did in FSX/P3D - like an elevator. Or a honky tonk mechanical bull - take your pick. 

The commentary I've seen from expert developers isn't at all that CFD is overrated, it's simply that it doesn't fit their development methodology. E.g., SWS, Just Flight, and BlackBird (nee MilViz); all of whom are devs who are used to developing flight models in FSX/P3D.

CFD isn't at all a panacea, in that it doesn't function well if you just enable it. Particularly if you enable it when you've already spent considerable time on the traditional FM (this straight from SWS).

There are PLENTY of anecdotes that have leaked out over time about how many compromises the devs have to make with MSFS' traditional FM (such as IFT's VariEze, because MSFS doesn't actually support canard planforms for the FM), etc.

So, here I sit, (im)patiently waiting for A2A Sims to release their Comanche, and in the meantime, I get by with with a handful of addons from Asobo, iniBuilds, Flying Iron Sims, Got Friends, and a few other freeware devs who have taken the time to develop their FMs using CFD - and for me, there's just no going back..

Because "by the numbers" doesn't necessarily cover what happens between the points on the performance chart. 

 

 

I did not realize there were freeware aircraft that used CFD, much less ones that were considered HQ.  Would you mind sharing a couple, I'd really like to check some out!  THX

 

EDITTED for posting before 2nd cup of coffee... :0 

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by badgenes

1 hour ago, badgenes said:

I did not realize there were freeware aircraft that used CFD, much less ones that were considered HQ.  Would you mind sharing a couple, I'd really like to check some out!  THX

You can try the Gotfriends Savage Carbon.. it has CFD enabled and certainly has great handling..

https://www.got-friends.com/products/savage-carbon

Back on topic... I agree that a good flight model is essential to any GA plane, and Carenado has not been the shining star in that department. In addition, the Marketplace encrypts the key files, so that a user cannot fine tune the flight model..  So, I can see that the C182 RG could be a disappointing purchase if the flight model is not well done  (CFD or no CFD..)

 

2 hours ago, badgenes said:

I did not realize there were freeware aircraft that used CFD, much less ones that were considered HQ.  Would you mind sharing a couple, I'd really like to check some out!  THX

 

EDITTED for posting before 2nd cup of coffee... :0 

Check this list: 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/new-propeller-cfd-soft-body-simulation-aircraft-list/504719

 

55 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

Back on topic... I agree that a good flight model is essential to any GA plane, and Carenado has not been the shining star in that department. In addition, the Marketplace encrypts the key files, so that a user cannot fine tune the flight model..  So, I can see that the C182 RG could be a disappointing purchase if the flight model is not well done  (CFD or no CFD..)

 

I mean we know it's not A2A - but the carenado singles seem to handle a crosswind very well on my end.  Not all addons will do that.  The Just Flight Arrow and T arrows for example do not.  I still wonder if secretly Bernt Stolle is working with them lol

"Oh wow somebody said A2A" - Godot

4 hours ago, badgenes said:

I did not realize there were freeware aircraft that used CFD, much less ones that were considered HQ.  Would you mind sharing a couple, I'd really like to check some out!  THX

Sure - here you go:

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/new-propeller-cfd-soft-body-simulation-aircraft-list/504719