True or false, Avsim experts?

[Fielder 3,743]

5 minutes ago, DaviiB said:

There are alot of assumptions in there: 

Why would radio transmissions be the only way an ET civilization could find us? 

This also implies that they had no clue we were here for thousands of years prior?... And never visited. 

"No craft has landed in plain view" - There are many, many witnesses who would disagree with you on that point. Also, perhaps it's not a great idea to routinely land and park your ship in full view of the territorial apes with deadly weapons?

 

You wouldn't expect a troupe of apes in the jungle to understand a scientist's reasons for observing them, or studying the jungle around them? Is it possible that we wouldn't comprehend the motives of a species that's extremely advanced (comparatively) and far more evolved than we are? 

It's even possible that our presence on this planet is completely incidental to their reason for visiting (i.e. They're not here for us. We're just the wildlife ). 

We have a very human-centric way of looking at things (we have no choice), but what if we need to realize, like a toddler starting to grow up, that it's not all about us, and we're part of a much bigger picture.

All that to say, you can't really guess at motives or speculate too much without tripping over an underlying assumption that hasn't been tested or verified. 

What's being alleged by this whistleblower is that we found them 90 years ago, but you, me and the rest of the public weren't told. 

Also, understand that a hundred years is barely a blip in the (known) history of the human race. In that time, we'd just recently figured out (after thousands of years) that slavery is bad.... and it's just now occurring to us that wars are bad for everybody....

Perhaps the "landing on the Whitehouse lawn" (open contract) theatrics are on pause until we grow up a bit more? If it was me out there, I'd be inclined to wait. 

Hopefully that was coherent. 

Cheers

You: Why would radio transmissions be the only way an ET civilization could find us? 

Me: I doubt anybody believes they would be the only way, so the question seems meaningless.

Electromagnetic waves are what gravity and light are composed of, indeed they are often called building blocks of matter. They are the most common way by far that energy is transferred in our universe. It is surely the going to be the first choice throughout the universe for civilizations reaching out to the stars to listen or to speak. 

You: This also implies that they had no clue we were here for thousands of years prior?... And never visited. 

Me: The universe is very large. Aliens way out there finding Earth if Earth was not first transmitting on the universal communications band (some frequency of the electromagnetic field) is an infinitely small likelihood. How could they know we are here? There's so many stars, so few with advanced life. An Earth that is not broadcasting, is an Earth almost surely hidden. 

You:  There are many, many witnesses who would disagree with you on that point (that No craft has landed in plain view).

Me: I only meant to say the obvious, that a civilization that wants to land here in plain view could have easily done so. So I wasn't very clear.

 

 

 

[Fielder 3,743]

note to everyone:

We have lots and lots of people from decades past who report close encounters with aliens. But no credible photographs of them taken by these people. Photos and movies of lights in the sky, but none of these wonderful extraterrestrials themselves. This lack of photos has meant little because people did not walk around with still cameras of movie cameras handy.

But now they do. Almost everyone carries a phone with a camera on it. We should therefore expect images soon. Let us see if they are forthcoming. 

[martin-w 3,259]

14 hours ago, DaviiB said:

 

• In this respect, as he is using formal processes, if he is found to be lying, he can go to jail.

 

 

Not really. He is protected by whistleblower laws. And he's not claimed that he personally has witnessed anything. Just that "others have told him" and "has seen reports" and "seen interesting photographs". What does interesting mean? Could mean anything. Interesting photographs could just be the stuff we have all seen on the internet. Unless he divulges classified information, he's safe from the law. he could well be telling the truth, but others aren't telling him the truth.

 

 

Quote

 

@MickWest

 

Grush has revealed that aliens are killing us and deactivating nukes, the government is killing people, and there probably a treaty with malevolent aliens. And the government cleared all these claims for publication on TV * Because the claims are not secret, they are false.

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2023/06/13/claims-made-by-ufo-whistleblower-david-grusch-are-pure-science-fiction/?sh=302515283a41

[Christopher Low 5,393]

8 hours ago, dmwalker said:

But, who is the individual actually issuing the order to withhold the information and to whom is that person accountable? It sounds as if it's not the President. I hope it's not just some nameless, faceless individual..

Remember that speech made by the out going President Eisenhower? The one about the "military industrial complex"? Presidents may come and Presidents may go, but (I am guessing) the military industrial complex goes on forever.

[martin-w 3,259]

14 hours ago, DaviiB said:

The Inspector General of the Intelligence Community has determined Grusch's claims to be both credible and urgent.

 

I recall it was his claim that he had been treated badly for reporting his suspicions, that the formal complaint related to, that was credible and urgent. Nothing to do with the claims of multiple alien ships crashing. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jun/17/aliens-ufo-uaps-us-defence-government-coverup-david-grusch

 

Quote

 

Now Grusch has turned whistleblower and told the Debrief website that the US has been retrieving intact and partially intact craft of non-human origin for decades. These retrievals happen all over the globe – anywhere that the craft have landed or crashed. In the article, Grusch is said to have given Congress “extensive classified information about [these] deeply covert programmes”.

But, according to Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb, until these documents are also made public, we should remain sceptical. “We shouldn’t believe stories unless evidence supports them. So as intriguing as it is to hear Grusch’s testimony, he did not provide any physical evidence or any data,” says Loeb.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,259]

1 hour ago, Fielder said:

Electromagnetic waves are what gravity and light are composed of

 

Not gravity. 

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

Not gravity. 

True because Gravity is created by the gnome factory located at the earths core spinning those cogs real hard so the rest of us don't fly into outer space. Bless those wee core gnomes

[martin-w 3,259]

40 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

True because Gravity is created by the gnome factory located at the earths core spinning those cogs real hard so the rest of us don't fly into outer space. Bless those wee core gnomes

 

Please stop spreading false information. 😡

It is well known, throughout the universe, that when the beautiful, delightful, heavenly, benevolent, godlike beings known as "cats" arrived in our bubble universe, floating in higher dimensional space, they uttered the words... "meow, meow purr purp purp purp, meow purr, purpy purpy purp purp, meow." And thus, our almighty deities known as cats created gravity.  Then catnip. 

 

 

[robb13 22]

7 hours ago, Fielder said:

We have lots and lots of people from decades past who report close encounters with aliens. But no credible photographs of them taken by these people. Photos and movies of lights in the sky, but none of these wonderful extraterrestrials themselves. This lack of photos has meant little because people did not walk around with still cameras of movie cameras handy.

But now they do. Almost everyone carries a phone with a camera on it. We should therefore expect images soon. Let us see if they are forthcoming

But I suspect these aliens have decided they are not going to show themselves until humanity is prepared to respect them and not photograph them with all the filters etc switched on.  Who wants to see a golden, slender, silky skinned, curvy alien..  !!

[martin-w 3,259]

If alien technology crashes frequently, as per the claims, why would aliens put pilots in them instead of simply sending drones.

I remain VERY skeptical about these latest claims.

I'm 95% certain it's nonsense.

[dmwalker 612]

7 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Presidents may come and Presidents may go, but (I am guessing) the military industrial complex goes on forever.

But you have to be more specific than  “the military industrial complex”.The industrial half has influence but it's the military half which makes the decisions, so how high do you have to go in the military to find who can change the classification process with respect to UFOs? Would it be the President or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or someone else with access to the covert programme which David Grusch is referring to?

[dmwalker 612]

12 hours ago, DaviiB said:

Also, perhaps it's not a great idea to routinely land and park your ship in full view of the territorial apes with deadly weapons?

I think they landed in front of a pride of hungry lions and said in their best English "Take me to your leader" and were never seen again.

[DaviiB 104]

11 hours ago, Fielder said:

Electromagnetic waves are what gravity and light are composed of, indeed they are often called building blocks of matter. They are the most common way by far that energy is transferred in our universe. It is surely the going to be the first choice throughout the universe for civilizations reaching out to the stars to listen or to speak. 

There are a lot of reasons that may not be true....at least for the spectrum(s) that we currently transmit and listen.

https://public.nrao.edu/ask/what-equipment-does-one-need-to-send-a-radio-signal-to-a-distant-star/#:~:text=Even though it is true,even the most nearby stars.

 

11 hours ago, Fielder said:

Me: The universe is very large. Aliens way out there finding Earth if Earth was not first transmitting on the universal communications band (some frequency of the electromagnetic field) is an infinitely small likelihood. How could they know we are here? There's so many stars, so few with advanced life. An Earth that is not broadcasting, is an Earth almost surely hidden. 

How could they know we're here? - That's not for any of us to answer (if they are, in-fact, here). We've been "industrialized" for a very short time and are just barely able to detect / see planets orbiting other stars, much less indications of life on them. Hypothetically, what would our observation and detection capabilities look like in a thousand years? A million?

It's not for us to assume we're invisible, or hard to detect. For all we know, planet Earth could be the noisy house in the neighbourhood. We just don't know what we don't know. A small island in the Pacific Ocean is very hard to find....until you have satellites.

11 hours ago, Fielder said:

You:  There are many, many witnesses who would disagree with you on that point (that No craft has landed in plain view).

Me: I only meant to say the obvious, that a civilization that wants to land here in plain view could have easily done so. So I wasn't very clear.

Gotcha. 

 

Cheers

[DaviiB 104]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

If alien technology crashes frequently, as per the claims, why would aliens put pilots in them instead of simply sending drones.

I remain VERY skeptical about these latest claims.

I'm 95% certain it's nonsense.

Nobody said they crash frequently. And nobody has indicated definitively 'why' they crashed.

Nobody is saying they were all piloted.

I get the impression that if any of this is true, the reality (and history) of it would be immensely complicated, and seem like science fiction. How complex is the known history of the human race? Imagine the history of a civilization that's millions of years older.....multiply that by multiple civilizations....which then start interacting with each other. It would make the 'Dune' novels seem like light reading.

[DaviiB 104]

2 hours ago, dmwalker said:

But you have to be more specific than  “the military industrial complex”.The industrial half has influence but it's the military half which makes the decisions, so how high do you have to go in the military to find who can change the classification process with respect to UFOs? Would it be the President or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or someone else with access to the covert programme which David Grusch is referring to?

I think one of the allegations is that "the program" has been withheld from people and organizations who should have had access. Deeply compartmentalized and 'off the books' - think Russian dolls.