So it appears the A2A Comanche is a massive hit with how it performs both on the ground and in the air, perhaps showcasing a real deficiency in the MSFS core flight engine. I know Asobo hired a well respected military flight sim developer to work on MSFS so wondering if we will see similar kinds of fidelity built into the core sim for all aircraft to leverage? I don't think it would look to good if a new version of the sim can't replicate some of the feel of this add on.

Nope…… wait, wait, maybe too soon….. hmmm.. Nope !

4 minutes ago, Donka said:

So it appears the A2A Comanche is a massive hit with how it performs both on the ground and in the air, perhaps showcasing a real deficiency in the MSFS core flight engine. I know Asobo hired a well respected military flight sim developer to work on MSFS so wondering if we will see similar kinds of fidelity built into the core sim for all aircraft to leverage? I don't think it would look to good if a new version of the sim can't replicate some of the feel of this add on.

Well it took A2A almost 3 years to iron it out. MSFS is an entire sim program,  

Asobo hired Petrovich, the former  developer for IL-2, who was responsible for the flight model in IL-2. Petrovich is working with Seb on the new flight model in MSFS 2024. But I think the new flight model in MSFS 2024 also uses CFD.

I already said in the Comanche vs Arrow thread that I think Aosbo could hire A2A as a consultant. Ask A2A for their advice on the flight model design that Petrovich and Seb are working on. And then maybe have A2A help test and give feedback on the MSFS 2024 flight model.

Edited July 19, 20232 yr by abrams_tank

15 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

hire A2A as a consultant. Ask A2A for their advice on the flight model design that Petrovich and Seb are working on.

It's the equivalent of giving up the secret of the Coca Cola recipe. 🤣 

Not going to happen. They are gonna keep the same recipe that got them millions of dollars in 2020, with a few added features to make it feel up to date. Why would they pour money onto this for very little ROI since 95% of the user base are casual flyers that dont need/care about all this fancy A2A thing. If 2024 wasnt on the schedule, then maybe it would make sense, but thats a big maybe. 

39 minutes ago, leprechaunlive said:

Not going to happen. They are gonna keep the same recipe that got them millions of dollars in 2020, with a few added features to make it feel up to date. Why would they pour money onto this for very little ROI since 95% of the user base are casual flyers that dont need/care about all this fancy A2A thing. If 2024 wasnt on the schedule, then maybe it would make sense, but thats a big maybe. 

There is an incentive for the MSFS team to improve the flight model to cater towards the "hard core" demographic though. I think the "hard core" demographic spends a disproportionate amount in the MSFS marketplace.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "hard core" demographic is spending 10x more in the MSFS marketplace, versus casual users of MSFS. Being "hard core" of course, they also spend way more time in MSFS over a given month, than a casual user.

Microsoft (or Jorg) still focuses on the "hard core" demographic because Working Title is still on the payroll. When the Working Title team are layed off, then it may signal that Microsoft (Jorg) is not targeting the "hard core" demographic anymore.

Also, I think Microsoft may eventually use the MSFS engine to attempt to enter the commercial market (MSFS engine does not necessarily mean they will use MSFS, but a product based on the same engine). I would guess commercial customers won't mind a more accurate flight model, everything else being equal.

Edited July 19, 20232 yr by abrams_tank

I think it’s fair to say MSFS has its flaws in the FM particularly with transitionary and ground modelling. The topic of twitchiness imo really has to do with one’s peripherals and finding the right sensitivity and reactivity for your setup . You can’t program an aircraft to behave exactly the same on hundreds of peripherals with varying motion of axis. 

anyway, back to topic. Personally I don’t think asking A2A for help is going to be doing MSFS any favours here.

A2A has spent these last 3 years creating a flight model specifically catered to one aircraft and specifically to their own aircraft. Their Comanche might fly ever so noticeably different to other Comanches at that’s what A2A fine tuning and perfection has gone into, recreating their Comanche.

Now MSFS’s job here is to create a flight model that is extensible and precise enough to be used by hundreds of developers on possibly thousands of different aircraft of different design, wing geometry, height, wing placement, engine placement etc. The scope is extremely different to what A2A’s aim is. None of these things and especially catering to aircraft devs were a part of discussion for A2A’s goals and rightfully so.

I think with that in mind I can only hope to see what the team at Asobo can achieve with 2024. However I don’t think seeking’s A2A guidance is the right fit for their goals.

just my 2p

 

1 hour ago, Donka said:

respected military flight sim developer 

Well lets respectfully call military entertainment sim developer. He didn't actually build simulators for military unlike A2A 

1 hour ago, Lucky38i said:

Now MSFS’s job here is to create a flight model that is extensible and precise enough to be used by hundreds of developers on possibly thousands of different aircraft of different design, wing geometry, height, wing placement, engine placement etc. The scope is extremely different to what A2A’s aim is. None of these things and especially catering to aircraft devs were a part of discussion for A2A’s goals and rightfully so.

I think with that in mind I can only hope to see what the team at Asobo can achieve with 2024. However I don’t think seeking’s A2A guidance is the right fit for their goals.

100% this ... MS/Asobo just need to keep on the current plans for v2024 improvements to give as much flexibility as possible in defining aircraft geometry+components (which has been much requested by many aircraft devs), and definitely improve the ground handling and ground/air transition models (i.e. proper modelling of wheels as 3d objects rather than points, etc). As you say, do as much as possible to the framework to enable aircraft devs to get the most out of it (and that also means enabling those add-on devs who want to fully override or go external of the sim like A2A). Also, what A2A has done for this GA aircraft might not necessarily translate to large tubeliners, and likely not helis or gliders, so once again it's the cater-to-all-needs sim platform that has to be precise enough and flexible enough to let add-on developers then realize their specific aircraft on top of it.
 

Edited July 19, 20232 yr by lwt1971

They appear to be totally different approaches.

The Asobo FM does something similar to XPlane generating the basic flight model from the 3D model, in theory requiring no flight model skills at all - though in reality at the moment a lot of additional tweaking by an FM expert is still needed.

The A2A system seems to be a way for very skilled FM specialists to create a flight model from scratch that is highly configurable.

I need right rudder in the Comanche and no rudder in the Asobo 172. Really hoping Asobo pulls through for 2024.

As for twitchiness... it's not a peripheral thing if this is the only sim that it happens on.

Edited July 20, 20232 yr by WestAir

4 hours ago, leprechaunlive said:

Not going to happen. They are gonna keep the same recipe that got them millions of dollars in 2020, with a few added features to make it feel up to date. Why would they pour money onto this for very little ROI since 95% of the user base are casual flyers that dont need/care about all this fancy A2A thing. If 2024 wasnt on the schedule, then maybe it would make sense, but thats a big maybe. 

You're way off here if what they've said and shown is legit. First of all, their casual user base is not 95% if we have to go by Jorg's numbers. Secondly, they would not have hired Andre. Thirdly, Seb said the CFD is now so detailed that it is a performance hog without multithreading. What's the point of that if all they cared about was catering to casuals? Fourthly, and this is the biggest one for me, the hot air balloon demo. Why on earth would they take the time to do the most amazing physics demo I've seen in any video game if they were just about the casuals? What's the ROI on that? Lol

 

5 hours ago, leprechaunlive said:

Not going to happen. They are gonna keep the same recipe that got them millions of dollars in 2020, with a few added features to make it feel up to date. Why would they pour money onto this for very little ROI since 95% of the user base are casual flyers that dont need/care about all this fancy A2A thing. If 2024 wasnt on the schedule, then maybe it would make sense, but thats a big maybe. 

 

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

You're way off here if what they've said and shown is legit. First of all, their casual user base is not 95% if we have to go by Jorg's numbers. Secondly, they would not have hired Andre. Thirdly, Seb said the CFD is now so detailed that it is a performance hog without multithreading. What's the point of that if all they cared about was catering to casuals? Fourthly, and this is the biggest one for me, the hot air balloon demo. Why on earth would they take the time to do the most amazing physics demo I've seen in any video game if they were just about the casuals? What's the ROI on that? Lol

Exactly Krakin, this repeated nonsense about MS/Asobo only catering to the casual user base is getting comically stale and flies straight in the face of actual facts and reality. Firstly like you say it's not 95% when MS/Asobo came out at FS Expo and said of the 12 million user base, 3 million are core simmers, 3 million core gamers, and the rest more casual.. so even if we class 9 million of that as folks who wouldn't care about flight realism that's 25% of the user base who are core simmers. So this 95% number is bogus. And even if we don't consider all the advancements planned for MSFS 2024, just looking at a whole bunch of features and content they've done for 2020 so far: CFD driven atmospheric airflow modelling, CFD driven flight models, high fidelity avionics in the default sim and hiring of WT, high fidelity enhancements to default aircraft like the Citation and 787, paying iniBuilds to bring their A310 into the core sim, etc, etc... all this requires "pouring of money", and sure seems like that is some very inexplicable pouring of money and investment into needless complex features/content for the "casual" user base ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Edited July 20, 20232 yr by lwt1971

However sophisticated they develop the new flight model, it all depends on the addon developer as with other simulators and the time spent on development.

 

We have already read comments here from developers who say that it is not worth losing months of development time to simulate a piston engine correctly for a small user base who ask for these things, others like A2A prefer to spend years to offer us an addon as close to reality as possible.

 

That's why many of us are asking here not to use "like A2A" so lightly, putting four silly maintenance features to an addon when they don't even care about simulating a piston engine correctly doesn't even get you close to the level of developers like A2A.