4 hours ago, GoranM said:

Obviously the survey wasn’t taken by 10 million people, but I’m still more than happy with the percentages and my bottom line. 
 

I believe it's good news for X-Plane after all... We have to see it as a niche sim because those who use it tend to seek for specific reasons more tightly connected to details of aerodynamics and systems modelling than scenery and or decals in instrument panels.

I belong to an even narrower group of users, since my main platforms these days are P3D and Airlinetools A32x, and yet I feel so happy as a user of those platforms, while at the same time being happy to be able to use XP12 and MFS 2020, that this kind of survey while indicative is, at least for me, far from base for any future options / decisions flight simulation wise...

I know what I don't like in each of the sims, I know what I would like to have in each one, and I also know why I prefer to use some over the others...

 

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Just to be accurate, tho, more than a few devs have gone, or gone primarily MSFS: iniB, Flying Iron, CowanSim, Carenado, India Foxt Echo, right off the top of my head.

I agree with this... the X-Plane.org store is in a pretty sorry state these days, with not much being released and updates to XP12 on older products taking months if ever to come out. There is no denying that a lot of devs have simply moved to MFS. X-Plane is crying out for quality developers, but many are clearly going to where the users are (Especially with scenery dev)

The results themselves are interesting, it's positive seeing some growth in X-Plane users, but I also wonder how many of those on X-Plane are from users who aren't running Windows, it looks similar to figures you see for Mac vs Windows surveys. (Maybe this was in the survey already and I missed it)

 

1 hour ago, tonywob said:

but I also wonder how many of those on X-Plane are from users who aren't running Windows, it looks similar to figures you see for Mac vs Windows surveys. (Maybe this was in the survey already and I missed it)

Assuming the ratio of Windows-users stayed unchanged compared to last year, the fact that the XP-usage (as a main sim) almost increased by 25% is quite impressive and a sign that they are doing many things right.

1 hour ago, jcomm said:

We have to see it as a niche sim

I am not sure if we can speak about a niche with these numbers. That was clearly the case in the 90s. Flightsimming is anyway a niche-market in the « gaming-world ». But XP is a solid 2nd under all non-military sims around and could even improve its market-shares. The other ones are the ones I would consider being a niche now (<10%).

Edited December 23, 20232 yr by Franz007

34 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Assuming the ratio of Windows-users stayed unchanged compared to last year, the fact that the XP-usage (as a main sim) almost increased by 25% is quite impressive and a sign that they are doing many things right.

It's certainly nice to see... and despite the constant "final nail-in-the-coffin" remarks, it's still here and not going anywhere. I'd just love to see the same interest we saw a few years ago, especially from 3rd parties. 

That being said.. there is now so much competition on MFS that only the really big well-known developers are standing out and quality IMO is slipping.

40 minutes ago, tonywob said:

That being said.. there is now so much competition on MFS that only the really big well-known developers are standing out and quality IMO is slipping

Nah, I think you’ve really got the wrong end of the stick here.

There is an awful lot of word not allowed on the marketplace, but there are also so many newcomers producing really good stuff. SWS, GotFriends, Fenix, SamScene, JBL, FSReborn, heck, even Heatblur from DCS, so many people adding good quality stuff to the MSFS ecosystem, and they’re all newcomers!

Frankly, the ‘big well-known developers’ are gradually being taken over by the new boys in town, and it’s time the old boys recognized this.

Edit: the profanity screening on this site is really over the top…

Edited December 23, 20232 yr by scotchegg

2 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

Nah, I think you’ve really got the wrong end of the stick here.

Possibly... I don't really buy addons these days for MFS unless it's something really good, but I do follow new releases and look at the products on the store, and absolutely nothing I find makes we want to buy it. A lot of it seems overpriced, and lacking any sort of quality or attention to detail that I used to find earlier on. If there are good small developers out there, they're being buried amongst the rubbish on the store, and this is pretty sad.

However, if what you say is true (and I'll take your word for it since you use the sim more than I do), then this is somewhat what I'm saying about "standing-out"... if there are higher quality smaller devs out there, then they're not being promoted or shown very well to customers amongst the absolute mass of low-quality products being pushed out. I don't want to name or shame, but in a recent release I was looking at from a big developer, I was really unimpressed how bland everything looked, very generic and low quality.

The lack of quality is by no means anything new, I have the same problem finding anything decent on X-Plane either.

3 hours ago, uwespeed said:

So, I would call that young crowd "gamers" which came to flight simming during the last years. And the question is, how serious they are taking that. I assume, not very much ...

Not very much…yet.

Having young people becoming more interested in the hobby is great news.

I have been saying this all along, but it is really intriguing that some here still think that expanding the base of simmers is something bad. Some of those “gamers” will definitely experiment with X-Plane in the future. 

Regardless, this huge increase in popularity among youngsters would not have been possible without MSFS and Xbox. 

Speaking of "gamers" I had been playing Arma II and Dayz Mod flying helicopters all over Chernarus having a blast and decided I wanted to get into helicopters more.  I bought Take on Helicopters which was also developed by Bohemia Interactive and was having fun but decided it was too gamey.  Did a little research at the time, bought XP10 and haven't looked back.   

2 minutes ago, tonywob said:

However, if what you say is true (and I'll take your word for it since you use the sim more than I do), then this is somewhat what I'm saying about "standing-out"... if there are higher quality smaller devs out there, then they're not being promoted or shown very well to customers amongst the absolute mass of low-quality products being pushed out. I don't want to name or shame, but in a recent release I was looking at from a big developer, I was really unimpressed how bland everything looked, very generic and low quality

You’re right there is a glut of low-effort skins / city lights / birds nonsense on the marketplace, but they’re rightfully being poorly scored, and the cream is rising to the top.

The sheer volume of content for MSFS automatically means a higher volume of good quality choice than we’ve ever had. And frankly, I’m not surprised that the old guard of addon devs who were the standard for so long feel a bit threatened by this (‘who are they? Never heard of them’), but my sympathy for a lot of the old guard has been diluted by seeing so much of their sneering dismissiveness of the genuinely sophisticated output of the next generation.

33 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

I have been saying this all along, but it is really intriguing that some here still think that expanding the base of simmers is something bad. Some of those “gamers” will definitely experiment with X-Plane in the future. 

This is how I basically got into X-Plane. I downloaded it on my phone as a game.. and eventually got it for my Mac.. Was the same with FS2000 years ago, got it after I tried combat flight sim

5 hours ago, uwespeed said:

I remember that in the 2010's and also earlier, when there were polls in the flight sim fora about the age of the simmers, the average age was around 50 years (or even older). When I see what we have nowadays (page 14 of the survey) ...

If I read that correctly in the current survey, 5% are between 10 and 15 years old, 12% between 15 and 20, 9% between 20 and 25 - and so on. So, I would call that young crowd "gamers" which came to flight simming during the last years. And the question is, how serious they are taking that. I assume, not very much ...

Your conclusion is young people don't take it seriously because... they're young? A few things:

1. Forums like Avsim etc. have always been dominated by 'older' people, so you're bound to get a sample that's biased. It skews the picture. Plus, many simmers aren't even using forums, including 'older' people.

2. The world isn't black and white. People are more complex than young people only wanting to game and older people taking everything seriously. Personally, I play Call of Duty and at the same time follow every bit of procedure as realistically as I can in my sim.

3. The same survey that shows younger people as the dominating age group shows things like realism, deep systems, accurate weather etc. as what people are looking for most in a flight simulator.

4. The vast majority of respondents of the survey use Navigraph services, which are entirely geared towards SeriousSimmers™ and have no appeal whatsoever to anyone who's just looking for some gaming. Plus, with the exception of Simbrief, Navigraph services require a subscription. No casual gamer is going to pay for that.

5. For several surveys now, and I believe even ever since they started the surveys, younger age groups have been dominating. The hobby isn't as 'old' as forums would make you believe.

6. The largest age group in the previous survey was exactly 20 years old. There were no ranges from 15-20, 20-25, etc. like there are now. This means anyone who was 18 last year would fall into the category of 20 rather than 15, inflating that category. This time they would fall into the same category which however is titled 15-20 now. For all you know, there may be the same amount of people in any age group than there were least year. The results this year are pretty much the same as last year.

7. The fact that teenagers and young adults bother to participate in this survey in the first place implies they are taking it more seriously than you think.

8. Even if younger people didn't take it seriously, there's nothing wrong with people getting into the hobby. You'll always start out as a not-so-serious-simmer before you grow into it. By now there are plenty of people who got into real world flying in various capacities through flight simming. I started flight simming at something like 13 years old having no clue what I was doing and just went flying a Learjet with a racing wheel for left and right and gas and brake pedals for up and down. Yesterday, I got angry at myself merely for forgetting to turn on the taxi lights for taxi in the sim.

Edited December 23, 20232 yr by threegreen

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

X-Plane has always been the underdog in terms of player base.

Not always. In the 2018 and 19 surveys XP11 essentially split the market with P3d. Slightly 2nd place for usage. If you were to view those numbers in terms of number of sim purchases (because even 'sometimes users' still bought a copy), it's equal.

Coming down from a status like that (recession) is painful for many to watch and very telling for the influence of eye candy (mass migration because of ortho4xp and then again for the new Bing maps front end), but the aftermath for LR is still better than what it was in pre XP11 days.

There seems to be a correlation beetween MSFS and XP. The more users MSFS generates, the more succesfull XP becomes (as well). MSFS has literally generated millions of new users, mostly via XBox. A part of these new users are unsatisfied with it after a while, try XP and stick with it (seen myself many times on FB or on different specialized forums).

At the end, we can all be thankfull at MSFS for helping XP to become more successfull.

What about organizing a group-event with a fly from Austin to Seattle (symbolic flight) to bring them some christmas-gifts as a thankyou? 😁

13 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Especially relative to what happened to the former heavyweight champ, Prepar3D...

Well, the writing was on the wall the minute that MSFS2020 was announced. And I doubt that LM cares about armchair pilot market share, as long as they retain their revenue from commercial contracts.

 

13 hours ago, GoranM said:

No offense to those guys, but with the exception of Carenado and ini, I've never heard of any of them.

Familiar names for longtime end-users. You need to get out more to mingle with the plebejans, Goran. 😉

 

11 hours ago, tonywob said:

I agree with this... the X-Plane.org store is in a pretty sorry state these days, with not much being released and updates to XP12 on older products taking months if ever to come out. There is no denying that a lot of devs have simply moved to MFS. X-Plane is crying out for quality developers, but many are clearly going to where the users are (Especially with scenery dev)

Part of this is Laminar's fault for providing inadequate, partially outdated documentation of their SDK. Streamline the content creation process and developers will come flocking.