1 hour ago, Bjoern said:

Part of this is Laminar's fault for providing inadequate, partially outdated documentation of their SDK. Streamline the content creation process and developers will come flocking.

More to it than that, Xplane users have become a very fussy demanding bunch, just take a look at the heated comments that developers get because there is a rivet missing off the fuselage. Carenado made nice planes, and me not being a pilot quiet enjoyed them, but look at the flack they copped. Im surprised we have as many developers as we do, honestly with some comments I see, I dont know why more havnt left. The oher sim has a greater sway of users and Im sure many of them dont care, looks nice, it flies, im happy.

It seems that I'm the only one utterly disappointed with the results. XP11/12 certainly deserve a way bigger percentage of users, but what can we do? The fact is that users are attracted by MSFS, firstly because of visuals, then marketing from Microsoft, a lot of trailers, streamers testing stuff. I mean even I can't resist many evening to hop into VR and enjoy the simple VFR flight above ZL19 scenery that is not even on my hard disk. It looks stunning, that is for sure. Not talking about "volcanic ash" clouds, or plasticy materials and lighting all around, it's the overall immersion of scenery in ZL19 with google map mod, with autogen matching perfectly (and not sticking like a sore thumb like in XP, especially trees), massive multiplayer system that attract gamers (I have it turned off because it breaks immersion for me, it's not Roblox lol), and the fact that it has the simplest way to install the addons (just copy/paste), just like in XP11/12. But for me, XP11, and I hope soon XP12 is by far the best sim for many reasons. 

First of all, I was a FSX, then Prepar3D guy for years. I mean no wonder, XP9 and XP10 were looking horrendous, and I simply didn't have a proper hardware controllers to battle with sensitive XP9 and XP10 physics, that translate in twitchy movements. I just couldn't battle with that with the mouse control and later with a cheap joystick, no thanks. Then I tried XP11 demo couple of times, and I still couldn't like it enough, especially after the fact how many hours of my life I invested in tweaking Prepar3D to a perfection, to match visuals, sounds and scenery to my matter of preference. I mean, I can bet that I invested over 200 hours into tweaking Ultimate Realism Preset (mostly known as URP), and many sounds, and I made Prepar3D to look really believable in my eyes, especially after looking at many XP11 brownish shots. All that tweaking took a toll logically, so I wasn't flying that much, and when I did, I always encounter some issues. It was either stuttering, low fps on approach, mesh errors on airports (clash with addon mesh, bad scenery library entries), some strange bugs, and finally CTDs. After some time the sim really started getting on my nerves, as I invested so much of my life to make it enjoyable, and yet the sim responds in scenery errors, bugs and CTDs. I mean no wonder, everyone's Prepar3D install is packed by addons and plugins, and the more you have - the more unstable that platform will become. Brace for impact, literally. After many days of struggling to enjoy a single flight, last drop in the glass made me to buy XP11 and legitimately start to take it seriously. Getting proper hardware, editing sensitivity curves, adding scripts and plugins, started buying planes, and it finally clicked. XP11 became my main sim couple of years before MSFS was released. 

Few days ago I asked one RL pilot why he uses MSFS when physics are so limited and wrong in many flight envelopes. His answer was straightforward - "I practice procedures and mostly touch and goes, physics are not that important to me. And also MSFS by default has best scenery, visuals and weather, and it's ready to go from the first run.". That made me think a bit, and he, of course, has a point. But again, "ready to go from the first run" is such a lie. 🙂 Just thinking about slow UI and clumsy system of assigning controls and presets denies that claim so good. 😄 Anyways, I made that RL pilot to try XP12 demo, and for some reason he bought the sim a day later. He soon started sending me messages how much better physics are, especially on the ground, and how it doesn't look too far away from MSFS when you use ortho scenery (in our case Autoortho). I said to him "Welcome to the club! Now you see why physics matter, it makes the whole sim way more immersive, practicing only procedures or not.". For me it was never a problem to invest a bit of my time to tweak XP11 visuals and add scenery, when I know I will enjoy the flying to the bone. In MSFS I get bored in air after 15 minutes. IT's just uninspiring to fly anything in that sim (except maybe A2A, just maybe), and looking at scenery and visuals is only a part of immersion. 

Final word - community search for simplicity of use, even if you are RL pilot, a casual simmer or a gamer. XP11/12 path is seriously longer, even if you like the demo. You must start thinking about scenery and tons of scripts and plugins, and that produces a headache for many, me included. But in my case, love prevails. 🙂The guys that fly XP11/12 with a default scenery, and without many scripts and addons, well, hats off to you. You are purely a physics and flight feel nerd that doesn't care about full immersion. That is a huge advantage.

I had a long day, so I probably had to write all this stuff. I feel the need to explain the situation for some reason, like you guys have no clue haha.

Edited December 23, 20232 yr by Pe11e

59 minutes ago, Pe11e said:

You must start thinking about scenery and tons of scripts and plugins,

I dont. Have no addon scenery. Have thought of 1 or 2 than looked at how often i might go there, so never bothered.

32 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

I dont. Have no addon scenery. Have thought of 1 or 2 than looked at how often i might go there, so never bothered.

Not talking about addon airports, default ones are really good in my opinion. But as I fly VFR a lot too, I really need to have the world covered by ortho, and that is why Autoortho is really handy little tool. Just let it install the 20-30gb scenery for the whole continent, and run it before the sim, it's that simple. No bother at all. I'm one of these guys that really can't look at the default scenery that pulls the tech from early 2000s. I mean even FSX has a lot better landclass data definitions than XP11/12. I'm aware that a lot of you guys care about FLIGHT simulation itself, but in real world pilots often look at the scenery features and POIs, especially GA pilots, and that is where default scenery lacks, a lot.

Edited December 24, 20232 yr by Pe11e

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

but what can we do?

That's the easiest one.

Better 😄

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

XP10 were looking horrendous

"Out of the box" XP11 wasn't that much better.

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

Final word - community search for simplicity of use, even if you are RL pilot, a casual simmer or a gamer. XP11/12 path is seriously longer, even if you like the demo. You must start thinking about scenery and tons of scripts and plugins, and that produces a headache for many, me included.

You hinted at this already, but "the long path" is only an issue when the initial experience isn't good enough to start it - otherwise it's not an issue and a big part of coming back, otherwise

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

I get bored in air after 15 minutes.

___

Which brings us to today.

I think 2024 is going to be a pretty massive year for XP12

Quote

Alpha testing began on December 3, 2021. Early Access began on September 5, 2022.

"Now we got that all that out the way"

especially if MSFS2024 isn't a similar generational leap that XP12 has been over XP11, a lot of those who exited because they were dissatisfied with MSFS2020 "fell through the cracks", this time XP12 is going to be waiting to catch them.

Last year - with only a few months of XP12 release it was

35% XP11.50+

20% XP12

So nearly all this growth in XP12 so far has been new users.

That's a rock solid showing in a genre so "sticky", flight sims that haven't seen an base update for 20+ years are still making solid numbers (FS2004, FSX).

Also, the thread from last time round

 

Edited December 24, 20232 yr by mSparks

22 hours ago, blingthinger said:

That's one of the common 'nails' in XP's 'coffin' trumpeted by the hot-air-doom'sday-prophets. The trajectory probably isn't what many thought it might be in 11's days of domination, but LR wouldn't be actively hiring more people (e.g. Biology) if it was a crash and burn situation.

Plus this survey is very clearly hot garbage for general stats. The top GPU in the hobby is a 4090?? Riiiight....

Hi,

Don't remember saying that XP will end up dead as a result of 3rd party programmers leaving the platform! I just don't expect to see any growth in the 3rd party department, as already stated and seen over time, addons have slowed dramatically for XP12 and that's not good for end users.

Edited December 24, 20232 yr by Mike_CFII_MEL

2 hours ago, Pe11e said:

Not talking about addon airports

I meant any scenery none, nil, zip.

50 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Hi,

Don't remember saying that XP will end up dead as a result of 3rd party programmers leaving the platform! I just don't expect to see any growth in the 3rd party department, as already stated and seen over time, addons have slowed dramatically for XP12 and that's not good for end users.

For about 15 years, I've seen people, who don't even have X-Plane, keep echoing the exact same thing you've said...

"Third party programmers will go where the crowd gathers."

If I listened to them, I would have had 2nd thoughts about making add ons for X-Plane.

It was a very risky fork in the road.  I'm glad I chose the path I did.

Just because a product doesn't sell as much as another one, doesn't mean the elements that make it profitable will suddenly dry up.

I'm curious about 1 comment you made, though.

59 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

I just don't expect to see any growth in the 3rd party department

Why?

On 12/22/2023 at 8:09 PM, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

I didn't get the take that this survey was good for X-Plane, not at all.

So what you really meant under those words was actually "...good for users of XP, ..."? Because your original statement above is very easily interpreted as doom and gloom for the platform overall. 

Well again interesting - but  nothing wrong with the market breakdown. Laminar have no complaints and has all the hallmarks of a brand and product building sales and resales steadily all the while improving the program itself, what it does and how it looks. As for the so called developers - not sure what peoples problem is here. I look at the selection of high quality aircraft for XP and well it seems the field is well and truly covered - Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombadier. A very good smattering of General Aviaiton stuff as well all I have seen is good work released steadily during the time that XP has moved through its Beta phases. 

Weather simulation is pretty word not allowed good but the autogen and style of buildings and the woeful state of roads in the sim sorely needs a make over big time! Above 2000 ft it is fine but tired of those european chalets beside the runways in tropical Noumea or highways beside an outback airstrip with traffic roaring by continously - really? An oh oh for a dirty road done properly. That said default airports are generally well in need of not much at all. 

It was actually the XPlane scenery that gave me the impetus to shut down P3D and give up the others and make it all XPlane12. A good decision - my reward well some of the nicest legacy aircraft about - might be missing some more historic or iconic big irons, 

Fact the whole demographic is fairly static actually. Think Laminar and addon developers will be ok for a good income and profit in the years ahead. 

Let me put it this way... I first heard of flight simulation when I was in HS via MSFS 95. I tried it, never bothered too much, cause I was into games and that's where it stayed until about 2014 when I got Infinite Flight for iPad. That's when I SERIOUSLY became interested and spent MANY hours on a most basic mobile platform for flight simulation. The pandemic came and I got MSFS 2020... I was hooked. To this day I got almost 2,000 hours on it. But when I became annoyed with bugs in sim updates, I bought P3D 5 and THOUSANDS of dollars of scenery and aircraft for it. All the PMDG and A2A, FSLabs, etc... I hated that MSFS didn't have any of that. I also gave XP11 a shot and was pleasantly surprised. It looked ugly in some areas (clouds, water, etc), so I got a bunch of mods. P3D5 looked better with Orbx though, so I stayed with that and MSFS. I bought A350 and Felis Tu-154. And eventually went back to MSFS. Then I got XP12 and all of a sudden, everything changed. It looked a TON better and FELT better than MSFS. Nowadays? I have P3D v6 installed with the ONLY officially supported aircraft - the Majestic Dash 8 Q400. It's OK, still doesn't look as good as XP12. But I BARELY fly MSFS. It's been two months now of XP12... Now I got LES DC-3 (disappointed in ground handling), IXEG 737-300 (disappointed in FMC), Colimata Concorde (which I got after DC Designs one for MSFS because of how much better Colimata looks and feels)... but now I want to get FF 757, 767, 777, all the Toliss stuff, and maybe HotStart Challenger. Been flying Zibo a ton and it's almost as good as PMDG. But the feel of the sim just is above and beyond any of the others. So, now I am primarily XP12. That's the story of how MSFS gets a new simmer on board and then that simmer is now a primary XP12 user. If not for MSFS, I would have never been on XP. But thanks to their catering to XBox and gamers (yes, call me a snob, but I call it taste LOL)... their lack of weather radar, their awful interface, I am here now. And I only have highest fidelity aircraft left on MSFS... No default, just Leonardo, PMDG, Fenix, etc... So, yes, I have the latest versions of all 3 sims and am not planning on changing that. But I can't tear myself away from XP12. And I am flying default scenery plus Global Forests - it looks passable to me for airliner flying - I just want the far north and south (which I am gonna get via Grand Antarctica and Grand Arctic package purchases, but really hope XP eventually has their own mesh). 

Edited December 24, 20232 yr by BostonJeremy77

2 hours ago, GoranM said:

I just don't expect to see any growth in the 3rd party department

Why?

I've now seen numerous "new" products being released into the market for XP that are on sale already. Why? Holiday season discounts, maybe or is it that no one is buying them? Without people/sales the developers will depart! I noticed on the org site itself over 50% of the new items listed are being slashed in price. Unless the new items listed for sale as new aren't really new anymore. If that's the case, then things have slowed down to the point of old software still on the new sales page. 

I fly the zibo mod only so aircraft isn't important to me, granted that's just me and my flying... what other 3rd party addons recently released give one that WOW I need to buy this right now feeling. I haven't experienced that urgent need to open my wallet for software addons for a long time now. Matter of fact I can't remember the last time I sat at my keyboard hitting refresh waiting to get a 3rd party item and yes I've done that many times 8-) . Wonder how many others are just like me and not purchasing anything?

Then there is the freeware gateway that has killed off its share of developers as well.

23 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Why? Holiday season discounts, maybe or is it that no one is buying them?

Have you looked at the world around you, there is not a lot of money going around people are cutting back, getting hard for everyone, those with too much money might not notice but people are hurting. Flightsim add on is not food when you have family.

1 hour ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

IXEG 737-300 (disappointed in FMC

Why, the yare doing FMOD first than rewriting FMC to use XP12 data so we dont need the extra download, thats going to take a long time, not an over night job. Works fine otherwise

12 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

Have you looked at the world around you, there is not a lot of money going around people are cutting back, getting hard for everyone, those with too much money might not notice but people are hurting. Flightsim add on is not food when you have family.

If this is the case then why isn't 2020 having sales issues to the point of slashing prices, simmarket has nowhere near the items listed slashed as found on the org? One would think if it's household cash in short supple the cause would effect all sim platforms.