Yep - and I’m still on the fence about it right now.

This is kinda reminding me of the recent debates I had in re the Kodiak upgrade. I don’t have any problem with handling it, other guys claim it falls out of the sky when flown on the numbers. In fact I really like the way it handles, and the more I fly it, it’s proving quite easy to fly by the book while providing a lively flight model.

Like you said, probably has to do with the HOTAS and such just as much as the “nut behind the wheel” 😁

Not up in here! Lol Kodiak does have a problem and low speed with max gross, and it’s not my setup it’s aerodynamic - hopefully it will be fixed in next update .Nevertheless , If doesn’t bother you it’s ok though not everyone needs to fly at max gross

Back to the topic: isn’t A2A working on the same model of Legacy? It’s the shame FSW and A2A overlap is rather see more variety from both

Not up in here! Lol Kodiak does have a problem and low speed with max gross, and it’s not my setup it’s aerodynamic - hopefully it will be fixed in next update .Nevertheless , If doesn’t bother you it’s ok though not everyone needs to fly at max gross

Back to the topic: isn’t A2A working on the same model of Legacy? It’s the shame FSW and A2A overlap is rather see more variety from both

Nope - I’ve replicated all the Kodiak info you’ve shared with me and I can’t duplicate the handling issues. And as stated above, the more I fly it, the easier it gets.

If your beef with it is post-stall behavior, then okay. Not a flight regime with which I have the least concern in flight sim because I’ll never actually have to deal with recovering a stalled Kodiak, so it’s utterly irrelevant.

In re two addons of the same aircraft, each is different enough not to overshadow or invalidate the other, IMHO.

And in any case, examples of it abound. Eg, how many A32x’s and A340’s and 737’s do we “need” in one sim…?

Sure, I’d have been really happy if there was a Lancair Evolution AND the Legacy RG, but in my mind, better too many than too few 🤙

Nope - I’ve replicated all the Kodiak info you’ve shared with me and I can’t duplicate the handling issues. And as stated above, the more I fly it, the easier it gets.

Go to weight and balance move all sliders to 100% meaning fuel and cargo/pax load at max gross. Establish approach with full flaps at 80kts - observe behaviour . Again It's not about general handling aircraft in general, yes I can land it at 95 kts or 100 kts instead but this is not the point. You have to be on numbers as per POH - and according POH 80 kts guarantees proper angle of attack as Kodiak should stall at VS0 ~60 kts at max gross 7255 lbs.

IRL Kodiak is famous for its good handling STAOL characteristic. According to some pilots who flown both Kodiak and Caravan Kodiak has an edge. Now, I understand that you like Kodiak, but it doesn't make right if you can't fly by the numbers. My understanding that SWS aware of this and rework entire FM to 2024 standards

Go to weight and balance move all sliders to 100% meaning fuel and cargo/pax load at max gross. Establish approach with full flaps at 80kts - observe behaviour . Again It's not about general handling aircraft in general, yes I can land it at 95 kts or 100 kts instead but this is not the point. You have to be on numbers as per POH - and according POH 80 kts guarantees proper angle of attack as Kodiak should stall at VS0 ~60 kts at max gross 7255 lbs.

IRL Kodiak is famous for its good handling STAOL characteristic. According to some pilots who flown both Kodiak and Caravan Kodiak has an edge. Now, I understand that you like Kodiak, but it doesn't make right if you can't fly by the numbers. My understanding that SWS aware of this and rework entire FM to 2024 standards

I’ve done it - over and over and over.

One CANNOT just “max the sliders” and go flying. The CG will be entirely out of whack

Further, MTOW significantly outweighs MLW. So you’ve either burn the fuel off down to 6700, or start there if you’re just going round the pattern.

When I land the Kodiak at 6700 or less at the POH speeds, there just aren’t any issues.

The main thing they “need” to fix is the excessive drag, esp with flaps down, so that the torque values are where they should be. But other than that, it’s fine. Esp for a $35 addon.

Edited May 17May 17 by UrgentSiesta

I've made two more liveries... I'm sure one of these is familiar ;)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/185132751@N02/]Ryan

by https://www.flickr.com/photos/185132751@N02/]Ryan

I caved and picked up the FSW Legacy and have to agree.

There is a lot to like and the maintenance and other custom features are good, but IMHO, it definitely feels it's been released too soon. It just lacks polish.

The big disappointment for me is the hand-flying characteristics. It feels really off and just not convincing to me.

It seems to have some huge drag going on. Getting it moving from standstill takes around 50% throttle. Take off is just odd. It's supposed to rotate at 80kts, but with full power, some nose-up trim and one of two notches of flaps, if you attempt to rotate at 80, nothing happens. It builds up more speed but feels very reluctant to break from the ground. Then all of a sudden - BAM! It jerks up into the air, rolls left and right a little and feels like it's going to stall. It's a really ungraceful take-off. In the climb it's very twitchy. Now I know all about the Legacy, it's light weight and that big IO-550, but it just feels really, really off. I have never flown a Legacy IRL but real Legacy pilots have complimented the Aerobask Legacy 550 for XP12 for it's handling realism, and this plane feels nothing like that. It also feels nothing like the RealAir Lanceair. It feels like the dev is struggling to get the FDE to do what it needs to do in a plane like this. It's like a lot of 2024 releases these days - mushy! (Think SWS PC-12 on release!). Light and responsive controls shouldn't necessarily mean a lack of all natural stability through the air. Approach is similar but not as bad. The pitch doesn't seem to respond to increased flap extention and at 100kts on final with flaps on the second to last setting, it feels close to the stall and just mushes all of the place. I tried a flapless take off and - as expected - it was even harder to break ground, then in a split second, jerked nose up into the air, waved around all over the place and then finally settled when it had reached around 120kts.

I would say the flight dynamics on this thing need a lot of work and, as it currently stands, despite a drop-dead gorgeous cockpit, I don't enjoy flying it.

EDIT: I've just read Ryan's comments and here's the thing. FDE in a flight sim can never replicate real motion. So everything comes down to translation rather than 1:1 replication. I just don't think that this is how even a sensitive aircraft like the Legacy should feel in the sim. In the real Legacy, the pilot can feel those surfaces coming to life and, through the rotation, the pilot feels truly connected to the flight surfaces, due to that instinctive feel. With this model, I can't foresee any way of being able to make a graceful take-off. There is no transition between the flight surfaces not creating lift and generating that lift. Rotating the elevator just results in nothing, followed by the harshest possible split second moment when it goes from not rotating, to over-rotating.

The sales page does state that FSW are still working on the FDE, so I am hoping it will develop and feel more convincing.

Well - good news!

a. they've already released the first patch to fix a laundry list of bugs, v0.1.1

b. more important to us is they've acknowledged the reported take-off and pitch issues and are issuing a patch for that...they say in "tonights change log", but I'm unclear if that means a patch tonight or not! 😁

It should be v0.1.2, and here's the relevant FM note:

2. Major flight dynamics foundation update and stability improvements. While we were already planning a deeper review of the flight dynamics due to some handling characteristics that still did not feel fully correct internally, the recent community reports regarding twitchiness and instability helped confirm that additional investigation was needed. During this process, we discovered several underlying flight model parameters that were preventing proper tuning and causing undesirable handling characteristics, including excessive roll coupling during sideslip conditions. These core issues have now been corrected, resulting in a much more stable and predictable aircraft foundation for further tuning.

The current update should already feel significantly improved compared to the initial beta release. Our real-world pilot will continue fine-tuning the aircraft handling characteristics on top of this new foundation, which will allow us to further refine realism and handling behavior moving forward.

I'm not quite sure how 'real pilots' ok'd it for release in it's original state but I'll try again after 0.1.2.

Yes, which is exactly why I’ve chosen them as examples.

Especially since they’re both so highly regarded.

A key justification given for the high price of these addons is that they come with multiple variants and options.

But the key point is that the included variants are really just window dressing. They’ve no effect on the baseline quality of the addon itself (and this is especially true in the case of the BAe 146).

Yet they command a higher price simply because they’re included.

As evidence in contrast, look at the relatively low price of the base Fenix. No variants: lower price than PMDG. Lower even than the 146.

So we can extend that and conclude that adding variants with REAL performance and technical differences - as in the case of the FSW - does indeed confer a legitimately higher value.

A2A puts everything they’ve got into a single variant of each aircraft, like Fenix does

FSW, in contrast, is taking the same route as Just Flight: more options for a less technically accurate addon to reach the same sales price.

IOW, if it’s legit for JF (and PMDG) to do it, then let’s not disparage another well regarded dev for doing the very same thing.

And p.s., I think less than 24hrs have elapsed since FSW’s Beta release with the noted issues. And IIRC, it took Fenix quite some time to get their house in order, too.

As I say I'm not a particulary big Airliner fan, but I'd don't this the price of the BAE 146 doesn't particularly high for an Airliner so I'm not sure that particular one says anything about this question either way.
As for PMDG their questionable (at least to me) pricing is what keeps me away from the 73x and 77x in general.

I'm not quite sure how 'real pilots' ok'd it for release in it's original state but I'll try again after 0.1.2.

You have to wonder if there was a overriding desire to get this version out before the A2A even if it meant compromising on release quality ?

I'm not quite sure how 'real pilots' ok'd it for release in it's original state but I'll try again after 0.1.2.

It's still a beta. There was a last minute mixup with something that affected the entire model. Still I generally liked it. It should be much better now for the general populus.

The general populus?

edit - 0.1.2 is available now.

On the plus side, synthetic vision works but the fuel quantity is now broken and you can't get airborne at all without an enormous amount of trim. Do they have actual beta testers as well or is it just us?

Edited May 18May 18 by St Mawgan

I caved and picked up the FSW Legacy and have to agree.

There is a lot to like and the maintenance and other custom features are good, but IMHO, it definitely feels it's been released too soon. It just lacks polish.

The big disappointment for me is the hand-flying characteristics. It feels really off and just not convincing to me.

It seems to have some huge drag going on. Getting it moving from standstill takes around 50% throttle. Take off is just odd. It's supposed to rotate at 80kts, but with full power, some nose-up trim and one of two notches of flaps, if you attempt to rotate at 80, nothing happens. It builds up more speed but feels very reluctant to break from the ground. Then all of a sudden - BAM! It jerks up into the air, rolls left and right a little and feels like it's going to stall. It's a really ungraceful take-off. In the climb it's very twitchy. Now I know all about the Legacy, it's light weight and that big IO-550, but it just feels really, really off. I have never flown a Legacy IRL but real Legacy pilots have complimented the Aerobask Legacy 550 for XP12 for it's handling realism, and this plane feels nothing like that. It also feels nothing like the RealAir Lanceair. It feels like the dev is struggling to get the FDE to do what it needs to do in a plane like this. It's like a lot of 2024 releases these days - mushy! (Think SWS PC-12 on release!). Light and responsive controls shouldn't necessarily mean a lack of all natural stability through the air. Approach is similar but not as bad. The pitch doesn't seem to respond to increased flap extention and at 100kts on final with flaps on the second to last setting, it feels close to the stall and just mushes all of the place. I tried a flapless take off and - as expected - it was even harder to break ground, then in a split second, jerked nose up into the air, waved around all over the place and then finally settled when it had reached around 120kts.

I would say the flight dynamics on this thing need a lot of work and, as it currently stands, despite a drop-dead gorgeous cockpit, I don't enjoy flying it.

EDIT: I've just read Ryan's comments and here's the thing. FDE in a flight sim can never replicate real motion. So everything comes down to translation rather than 1:1 replication. I just don't think that this is how even a sensitive aircraft like the Legacy should feel in the sim. In the real Legacy, the pilot can feel those surfaces coming to life and, through the rotation, the pilot feels truly connected to the flight surfaces, due to that instinctive feel. With this model, I can't foresee any way of being able to make a graceful take-off. There is no transition between the flight surfaces not creating lift and generating that lift. Rotating the elevator just results in nothing, followed by the harshest possible split second moment when it goes from not rotating, to over-rotating.

The sales page does state that FSW are still working on the FDE, so I am hoping it will develop and feel more convincing.

I think it handles excellent... So you have one irl pilot, me, saying it does, and one irl pilot who says it doesn't. I think that's perfectly ok because we all have different controllers, different curves (mine are basically default except some small deadzones), and we've both flown different airframes irl. JYW is someone I respect very much - he's always had helpful posts here and he's got way more experience with LSAs. This plane reminds me of the Milviz C310....it's not going to fly like a C172.... If you got too slow in the c310 it would drop like brick as well. Also free castoring nose wheel physics done by asobo aren't the best imo. However I noticed FSW did a version with steering now so it may be easier to handle on the ground if one doesn't have nice pedals.

I'm not quite sure how 'real pilots' ok'd it for release in it's original state but I'll try again after 0.1.2.

Well, after the announced patch to address the physics issues, I decided to buy it and give it a try before the patch arrived (so I'd have something to compare).

Yep - this is definitely Beta! I'm glad FSW put that in literal big red letters on their website, too. So - fair warning to all of us!

I have to agree mostly with JYW, but also somewhat with Ryan: the plane is terrible in regards pitch - at any speed. But aside from THAT(😆!), it's decent enough that I see it as a diamond in the rough. There IS a lot of "fluidity" in the flight model, so it doesn't fly in the stereotypical "On Rails" manner, and that's a good sign for hope (IMHO).

Running it around the circuit, I had more trouble with takeoffs than landings, but I was able to adjust and smooth out the flight with practice and way more focus on pitch than should be necessary. But as noted, the pitch moment in this addon makes it fly like it's about 20% shorter than it is - extremely easy to de-stabilize in the vertical, and a real distraction.

As St Mawgan says, I'm not sure how any IRL pilot approved this flight model for release.

I'll give the v0.1.2 update a try after work today and keep my fingers crossed!

Might want to wait for 0.1.3 because 0.1.2 has its own problems as noted above and on Discord.

Mike

Might want to wait for 0.1.3 because 0.1.2 has its own problems as noted above and on Discord.

Mike

Yeah - I was just cruising there and the addon seems like a dumpster fire right now. BUT I can view that as a net positive as it's because the dev's are making too many fixes too fast, and there are apparently a bunch of inter-dependencies.

Seems like all that custom Turbo code is rather fragile, as well, so probably best to stick with the normally aspirated variants for now.

So, it should settle out in about a week, I'm sure. It's a Beta, so these things are to be expected, esp with a very small dev team.

Also great to see "ValinHawk" in there commenting on status/needed fixes. I presume he's the IRL owner of the StarHawk (and a retired NASA engineer!).

Great to hear about the early updates!

I may wait for one more (0.13) then see how she's doing.

I personally think that for a release like this, there's a short game and a long game. The short game is somewhat painful. We can all see the beautiful aspects of this release and the stashes of potential. But at present, it's difficult to enjoy.

However, in terms of the long game, I feel 100% confident. FSW are a fantastic team and I've never been disappointed with any of their models - often after just a couple of updates. If this were Carenado, we'd all know that this release was "as good as it's probably going to ever get". But FSW are the complete opposite; they're clearly all over this and are working tirelessly to improve the issues as urgently as they can.

I'm normally a terribly impatient person but where this gorgeous Legacy is concerned, I'll wait because I know that they won't stop until it flies like a dream 😎

Edited May 18May 18 by JYW