Ohhhh no they don't. Whatever you may think of Pirate Bay or any other torrent site they are not costing any developer anything. The data is duplicated, not transferred from a devs webserver. It's already been said that most folks on the Pirate Bay would not be customers in any case. Most torrent users are like collectors. They collect software just to have it. How do I know? Just read through the comment threads, follow the community, listen to the rhetoric. You really think there are thousands/millions of teenagers out there making money from a cracked version of Photoshop?Apple and Microsoft have more reasons than many to complain about software being copied (please stop calling it piracy) but their communications teams would hit someone on the head with a shovel if they thought for a second the CEO was going to publish a front page rant about torrent sites on Apple.com or Microsoft.com. Show your customers your wares, show them your prices. Ignore the rest of it.

So I guess what you are saying is that stealing (yes I'd prefer to stop calling it piracy and call it what it is) is ok, as long as there is no monetary exchange.

So I guess what you are saying is that stealing (yes I'd prefer to stop calling it piracy and call it what it is) is ok, as long as there is no monetary exchange.

yes, and the reason you know that's what i said is because that particular statement is nowhere to be seen in what was written.is it ok/legal/harmless, pick your word. Ranting about it to your customers or potential customers is a waste of time and bad PR. It's unprofessional, it's insulting to said potential or existing customers and, finally, it will achieve precisely nothing. The Swedish government can't bring down Pirate Bay, neither can those buffoons at the RIAA or MPAA. Focus on real customers, leave the ranting to the forums.

Oh yes they do. Are you unaware that retail business passes price increases to consumers to cover loss due to theft?Simple concept. It matters not whether thieves "collect" or use items the've stolen, legitimate customers price increases are directly tied to loss due to theft. :(Mesa, your remarks show a distinct ingnorance of how the "system" works.Your attitude is "legitimate users costs be damned". Sorry, but as we say in the midwest.."That dog won't hunt". :(

Yes, but you, as in Eaglesoft, are not a retail business. When I bought your SR22 i did not buy it from a shop I bought it from you. The Pirate Bay (or at least the torrent uploader) is duplicating your data (sadly the SR22 is on there) they are not walking out of your office with a HD with your data on it.

yes, and the reason you know that's what i said is because that particular statement is nowhere to be seen in what was written.Actually-I believe that is exactly what you wrote. I just said it with fewer words.

Another point to consider for those that think torrent users and PB users don't affect product cost.Are these thieves allowed the same access to support as paying customers?If you think that they don't try to get support for their illegal possessions I think you are in for a surprise.And time spent by a dev supporting illegal users does have an effect on product pricing.regards,Joe

yes, and the reason you know that's what i said is because that particular statement is nowhere to be seen in what was written.is it ok/legal/harmless, pick your word. Ranting about it to your customers or potential customers is a waste of time and bad PR. It's unprofessional, it's insulting to said potential or existing customers and, finally, it will achieve precisely nothing. The Swedish government can't bring down Pirate Bay, neither can those buffoons at the RIAA or MPAA. Focus on real customers, leave the ranting to the forums.

Tigger, to publically state that theft is ok is to, in effect, advocate theft. Your position is untenable in an honest and upright community. Acceptance of such views can be found only among those who in practice theft rather than purchase. :(

I see a lot of words in this thread but see nothing about feelings. And, IMHO, this is what the OP was really about. Think about it for a sec, you see something that interests you and you possibly want to add it to your collection. You're in a nice rosy glow about to spend money on your hobby. Rosy glow, warm fuzzies generally make one vulnerable. Now, you go to the site, ready to feel even better and WHAM! - you are hit with a blast of negativity. I am NOT debating the pro's or cons of the subject only the impression, the feeling that it gives to the prospective customer. Quite often, because of the rosy glow, the effect of the negative is heightened and we get threads such as this one.Simply put, we go to these sites to feel good, look at pretty pix, possibly spend money, NOT get involved in conflict. When I want conflict I will bring up politics or religion on Usenet. :)Francois mentioned that he wrote his 'feelings' during a period when his feelings were quite irritated. The content of the message is irrelevant ( in this context - not saying piracy is irrelevant) it is the feeling of the message that caused the issue. Just MHO,Vic

yes, and the reason you know that's what i said is because that particular statement is nowhere to be seen in what was written.is it ok/legal/harmless, pick your word. Ranting about it to your customers or potential customers is a waste of time and bad PR. It's unprofessional, it's insulting to said potential or existing customers and, finally, it will achieve precisely nothing. The Swedish government can't bring down Pirate Bay, neither can those buffoons at the RIAA or MPAA. Focus on real customers, leave the ranting to the forums.Yes, but you, as in Eaglesoft, are not a retail business. When I bought your SR22 i did not buy it from a shop I bought it from you. The Pirate Bay (or at least the torrent uploader) is duplicating your data (sadly the SR22 is on there) they are not walking out of your office with a HD with your data on it.

Eaglesoft is indeed a retail business. One need not use brick and mortor as a part of the definition of retail business.We are all too aware of what is available on theft sites be it us or other FS Vendors. Each is a stolen/hacked product. Suggest you take a look at the definition of theft as found on Dictionary.com :(

In absolutely every single business model I can think of... loss prevention is factored into price. All of them.The more time I, a developer, spend on copy protection to reduce loss (that's loss prevention)... the more it costs. I'm not free. So the price goes up to cover the cost.That's reality.So, keep on thinking pirates hurt no one. :(

Ed, I was trying to avoid that aspect of the price increase equation in order to keep it simple for those who don't seem to "get it" :(

I can't believe how much argument a simple message that appears on a developer's website has caused, especially since it obviously doesn't actually apply to anyone here :( Ok, it is a little "in your face" - but it is quite clear that it is a message to those that have / are trying to obtain illegal copies of their software, and from what Francois has said expresses his frustration at the fact that most of the traffic to his website comes from the Pirate Bay. I can't say that I blame him, since they will be paying out for the bandwidth used by people who have little or no intention of becoming customers.Can't say I have ever bought a scenery add-on (other than mesh), would that message put me off - no chance. G

Guys I am moving this thread to the Hangar Chat.Thx.

I see a lot of words in this thread but see nothing about feelings. And, IMHO, this is what the OP was really about. Think about it for a sec, you see something that interests you and you possibly want to add it to your collection. You're in a nice rosy glow about to spend money on your hobby. Rosy glow, warm fuzzies generally make one vulnerable. Now, you go to the site, ready to feel even better and WHAM! - you are hit with a blast of negativity. I am NOT debating the pro's or cons of the subject only the impression, the feeling that it gives to the prospective customer. Quite often, because of the rosy glow, the effect of the negative is heightened and we get threads such as this one.Simply put, we go to these sites to feel good, look at pretty pix, possibly spend money, NOT get involved in conflict. When I want conflict I will bring up politics or religion on Usenet. :)Francois mentioned that he wrote his 'feelings' during a period when his feelings were quite irritated. The content of the message is irrelevant ( in this context - not saying piracy is irrelevant) it is the feeling of the message that caused the issue.

I agree with you, but still... I went to that site a few days ago, started to read the message and thought 'this isn't meant for me' and went on with what I wanted to do there. I didn't think (and can't imagine I ever would): '**** this company, I won't buy anything from them'. The guy clearly wasn't 'talking' to me, so... it didn't bother me at all. I really don't understand what's the problem

Ed, I was trying to avoid that aspect of the price increase equation in order to keep it simple for those who don't seem to "get it" :(

Ron (and Ed), can you tell us by how much exactly you have had to increase the price of your addons to cover your virtual losses? I see the Citation X Extreme V2.0 for example (The most exciting new product for 2008, apparently) is $49.95. How much would that have been before TPB came along?How much did your copy protection cost? How much will the 'most exciting new product of 2012' cost once you have brought your new anti-copy countermeasures into place? $69.95? $89.95?And how much will you have to increase that by after a spotty 16 year old breaks your new code in ten minutes flat?(There must be a price increase/illegal download rate equation out there somewhere).And please find another Smiley - there are quite a few to choose from :(

Ron (and Ed), can you tell us by how much exactly you have had to increase the price of your addons to cover your virtual losses? I see the Citation X Extreme V2.0 for example (The most exciting new product for 2008, apparently) is $49.95. How much would that have been before TPB came along?How much did your copy protection cost? How much will the 'most exciting new product of 2012' cost once you have brought your new anti-copy countermeasures into place? $69.95? $89.95?And how much will you have to increase that by after a spotty 16 year old breaks your new code in ten minutes flat?(There must be a price increase/illegal download rate equation out there somewhere).And please find another Smiley - there are quite a few to choose from :(

Mesa, you are joking right?? :( It would be the proverbial "cold day....." before we would reveal numbers to someone who is obviously a proponent of theft. As to the spotty 16 year old remark, it remains to be seen how effective FS Developers methods will be. :(

I'm not about to quantify physical dollar values regarding what my time and effort are worth with you.That's literally none of your business, as I am not employed by you.The fact is, if I'm spending time on copy protection... it's a cost. You can't dismiss it nor ignore it.Oh... and I strongly urge you to stop tossing in veiled insults into replies. Inappropriate, to say the least.