To be fair though, I largely agree, I actually don't seem to have that many problems with FS add-ons either, and on pretty much every occasion that I have had an issue, which truly is not that often, a quick post on the relevant product support forums has usually elicited a fix pretty quickly.I really can't think of any truly insurmountable issue I've had with anything of that nature. Maybe I'm lucky, but almost everything I buy for FS seems to work just fine on my computer, it really does.Al

To be fair...I agree with you. I have a pretty smooth machine and I really think a good many of the old grimlins were killed off by Windows 7. Sure seems like things work much smoother these days. I do think that the Op's point is that most things can always be improved except the noted exception above. I guess Eaglesoft is perfect and we just can't read. That seems to be there story and they are stickin' to it!!! LOL

Sorry sir, but the information you were provided is absolutely NOT correct. I've been developing software for 30+ years (back in day when I started on a TRS-80 Color Computer) -- even back then, Error trapping was a primitive feature available for me to use. I have yet to code in a language that does NOT support error trapping. Fast forward to today and most of the dev's appear to use VC++ and/or .NET framework and I can assure you that both of these development platforms support error trapping. There certainly is no OS limitation (just bring up the Event Viewer in your OS, you'll see many many many logged events, not all error, most probably just informational - you hope). Interaction with FSX is a little more tricky but still very easy to implement and certainly doable.

<sarcasm>Oh good... then you've been programming almost as long as I have (COBOL, FORTRAN, Assembler on mainframes before PC's existed). Isn't that really nifty to toss out our 'expertise' as bragging rights?? </sarcasm>I'm well aware of the OS error event logging. I am also well aware that absolutely every single time there is an error in FS, it makes an entry into said event log. What you clearly are unaware of is that addon developers can't control what goes in there at all if their addon is a gauge or module. Zip, zilch, nada. It's because we're running as a .dll under the 'control' of FS when it comes to gauges and modules.I'm also aware of at least half a dozen ways of doing a memory dump, none of which work within a gauge or module .dll running within FS.If it were possible, I'd have it in every gauge I code. It would make my life easier.

I held off on this thread for quite a while.... But there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and assumptions about developers, what they should and should not be doing, how they dont test anything properly etc. etc. The last time I checked, windows is updated almost daily and depending on what version, for years. Danny Maher said it best, that FSX in combination with Windows (pick your flavor) and any number of different kinds of hardware combos, different add-ons, people screwing around with files and claiming and blaming the devs, custom tweaks,lack of proper system maintenance, and you have what is the equivalent of an erector set built with no conformity from one user to the next and somehow we are supposed to magically come out with a bug free product. Bug free according to whom? Gee Ron, Ernie, Ed, Bill,Chock, Bert... lets get our magic wands together. I have an extra bag of pixy dust. This is ridiculous. What is important is that the developer either corrects legitimate problems (not caters to your personal wish list) that affect many across the board or gives you your money back if you are not happy. If you have either of those options available, you will have something that is not very common in the software business period.But this line below really takes the cake:

But some vendors/devs got smart and lock you out of the key forums (the ones with folks pointing out problems) if you have not purchased the product (this is unfortunate).Rob

Really? You really believe that? Let me explain why this happens, it is to prevent access to support forums from the many more people that steal the products than buy them. That is a reality in this tiny little cottage industry, not that developers are trying to hide from anything. Unbelievable. Personally it sounds like you have a problem with developers / reviewers in general and are looking for any kind of post to crow from and trying to rally the troops. Here is a challenge... since you seem to have a better handle on the industry than some of us do, please enlist your talents and show us how it is done. I am not being smart (well kind of ) but show us something we don't know... be a part of the solution. If not, you know my next suggestion.

Danny Maher said it best, that FSX in combination with Windows (pick your flavor) and any number of different kinds of hardware combos, different add-ons, people screwing around with files and claiming and blaming the devs, custom tweaks,lack of proper system maintenance, and you have what is the equivalent of an erector set built with no conformity from one user to the next and somehow we are supposed to magically come out with a bug free product. Bug free according to whom?

Nice quote :( However, as someone who has been making FS addons for 6 years, I'd say the vast majority of FS users are mature and experienced enough to know that computers and flight simulation are a bit of a 'house of cards', especially when you're dealing with 1000s of different combinations of hardware and software. Sometimes the odd user will get testy and frustrated, but in 99 percent of all cases they can be defused very easily simply by listening to them and taking an active interest in their problem.I've noticed that some developers respond to aggression with aggression... that generally only escalates things in my view and makes things worse.However, I will say that the best thing users can do keep things running happily is to do a clean install of their OS maybe once year.I've done remote desktop sessions with some users, and some of the stuff I've seen seen on some user's machines would just blow your mind... It's like they let a hurricane loose inside their computer.Sometimes the best thing a user can do is do a clean install of your OS, and preferably get Windows 7. That's my one cent...

Maybe on Christmas Eve, at midnight, when all the animals start talking, everyone's FS will not crash anymore, and for a brief time everything will run perfectly.Wait, that has been my history since the day I installed FS9 and FSX. I know my FS9 is my original install and FSX reinstalled once, when I built a new computer.Some things I have read in this thread are unbelievable to say the least.

Nice quote :( However, as someone who has been making FS addons for 6 years...I've noticed that some developers respond to aggression with aggression... that generally only escalates things in my view and makes things worse.That's my one cent...

Brian, with all due respect, I have been at this for over 16 years and I think you are right to point, but when the balance starts tipping in the other direction, I think it is important for developers to stand up and explain how things really are, not just pacify somebody because they are mad, vocal and want to make a point that they may not have any understanding of. I am a reasonable guy until you upset the apple cart. If you do, it would be best if you have a good understanding of why I (or any other devs) may have a problem with it. Thats one up on your 1 cent.....

Brian, with all due respect, I have been at this for over 16 years and I think you are right to point, but when the balance starts tipping in the other direction, I think it is important for developers to stand up and explain how things really are, not just pacify somebody because they are mad, vocal and want to make a point that they may not have any understanding of. I am a reasonable guy until you upset the apple cart. If you do, it would be best if you have a good understanding of why I (or any other devs) may have a problem with it. Thats one up on your 1 cent.....

Hi Jim,I'll up you one more cent again :-)I don't advocate pacifying the user for the sake of pacifying them... I advocate defusing because in order to solve their problem, you need to get them to explain what the problem is, and they can't do that if they're in some kind hostile/defensive emotional state.Most people from my experience just want to listened to, and in most cases if you respond to them calmly, they'll respond calmly back. And then you can work on solving their problem. Sure, as you say, in the extremely rare situation, you might get the odd nutter who is beyond help.But even in those cases, there's no point in getting aggressive back (at least in my view). It's like if you get into a verbal argument with someone on the street....General rule is the louder the other guy shouts, the more you lower your voice. It makes the other guy look like a total nut.

The practice of offering clients their money back if not satisfied is becoming widespread and offers a risk free assessment of many addons , though i grant the original poster his point, there is room for improvement and as a whole i see constant improvement, few make the same error a second time, both clients and developers.

I held off on this thread for quite a while.... But there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and assumptions about developers, what they should and should not be doing, how they dont test anything properly etc. etc. The last time I checked, windows is updated almost daily and depending on what version, for years. Danny Maher said it best, that FSX in combination with Windows (pick your flavor) and any number of different kinds of hardware combos, different add-ons, people screwing around with files and claiming and blaming the devs, custom tweaks,lack of proper system maintenance, and you have what is the equivalent of an erector set built with no conformity from one user to the next and somehow we are supposed to magically come out with a bug free product. Bug free according to whom? Gee Ron, Ernie, Ed, Bill,Chock, Bert... lets get our magic wands together. I have an extra bag of pixy dust. This is ridiculous. What is important is that the developer either corrects legitimate problems (not caters to your personal wish list) that affect many across the board or gives you your money back if you are not happy. If you have either of those options available, you will have something that is not very common in the software business period.But this line below really takes the cake:Really? You really believe that? Let me explain why this happens, it is to prevent access to support forums from the many more people that steal the products than buy them. That is a reality in this tiny little cottage industry, not that developers are trying to hide from anything. Unbelievable. Personally it sounds like you have a problem with developers / reviewers in general and are looking for any kind of post to crow from and trying to rally the troops. Here is a challenge... since you seem to have a better handle on the industry than some of us do, please enlist your talents and show us how it is done. I am not being smart (well kind of ) but show us something we don't know... be a part of the solution. If not, you know my next suggestion.

Good challenge Jim. Was mulling over whether to a make a similar challenge myself.We've already done so regarding Bill and Eds post so won't repeat it here. Seems the OP likes to talk a good game but let's see how he does at turning a tap and delivering something, then supporting it, and finally has someone review it.Oh almost forgot. We're fresh out of magic pixi dust but expect a shipment in from the warez groups soon.

Somehow I knew it would evolve to this...tis sad.Anyway, I'll stay polite.1. Bug free, I don't have those expectations and never did, but that would require you reading my posts, guess you didn't.2. If you produce a DLL you can error trap, yes I have produced DLLs for FSX.3. I have provided considerable "Free" work, again, I guess you didn't read my posts and/or only read what you want to read to suit your justification.4. I'm relating my experience with reviews and addons, because you folks claim your system is perfect really has no relevance, if you want to claim that everyone who has a problem is because it's their fault then so be it, still doesn't help the community nor will it increase sales. A good developer would look at this as an opportunity to improve -- I know I do when presented with such information. I certainly don't go to my clients/customers and say "you don't know ##### your doing" or "you screwed up something" -- just NOT a good way to do business.5. So you think "Check.dll" is a good idea? 6. So leaving a mess of directories and entries in one's FSX config after an uninstalling a 3rd party product is good practice?It's a little sad to see some really bad attitudes from some high flyers here. Unfortunate. And please, the "then you do it better" isn't relevant at all, only exposes a level on insecurity.Rob

And Merry Christmas to one and all!

Somehow I knew it would evolve to this...tis sad.Anyway, I'll stay polite.1. Bug free, I don't have those expectations and never did, but that would require you reading my posts, guess you didn't.2. If you produce a DLL you can error trap, yes I have produced DLLs for FSX.3. I have provided considerable "Free" work, again, I guess you didn't read my posts and/or only read what you want to read to suit your justification.4. I'm relating my experience with reviews and addons, because you folks claim your system is perfect really has no relevance, if you want to claim that everyone who has a problem is because it's their fault then so be it, still doesn't help the community nor will it increase sales. A good developer would look at this as an opportunity to improve -- I know I do when presented with such information. I certainly don't go to my clients/customers and say "you don't know ##### your doing" or "you screwed up something" -- just NOT a good way to do business.5. So you think "Check.dll" is a good idea? 6. So leaving a mess of directories and entries in one's FSX config after an uninstalling a 3rd party product is good practice?It's a little sad to see some really bad attitudes from some high flyers here. Unfortunate. And please, the "then you do it better" isn't relevant at all, only exposes a level on insecurity.Rob

You're kidding right? You start a thread just before Christmas which hammers devs and reviewers alike with an attitude that implies that you can do a better job in both areas then are "surprised" at the responses?The challenge is for you to not only talk the talk but walk the walk. If you are unwilling or unable to deliver then why prolong the charade?None of the devs or reviewers that I know personally disregard the basics but are constantly evaluating/reevaulting ares of concern or improvement.Your post seeks to take everyone within earshot to a fairly negative view when everyone already knows that this hobby/community/cottage industry can/should be improved.I'll echo Jims earlier challenge..be a part of the solution by action, not just words.

2. If you produce a DLL you can error trap, yes I have produced DLLs for FSX.3. I have provided considerable "Free" work, again, I guess you didn't read my posts and/or only read what you want to read to suit your justification.

Rob, do you honestly think no one here can use the "Search" function? You have made precisely ONE post in the Aircraft and Panel Design forum, which was -in essence- simply a rehash of your current arguments, and not the least bit "helpful":7 July, 2005http://forum.avsim.net/topic/72971-why-i-will-no-longer-purchase-any-add-on-aircraft/page__p__509859__hl__robains__fromsearch__1#entry509859A search of the Library yields absolutely nothing authored by you. Nada. Zilch.So, where is all this claimed "Free" work? Please do point me in the right direction!An "all forums search" reports that since joining AVSIM you have started precisely three threads, all three of which are simply "more of the same" stuff:1. this very thread2. the one previously linked to above3. this one: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/58836-screenshots-and-graphics-settings-11-fps-min/page__view__findpost__p__403804__hl__robains__fromsearch__1Now, please explain precisely how you've managed accomplish your claim of "error trapping within an in-process .dll" in the Aircraft and Panel Design forum, which is something that even the nice folks at Microsoft say is not possible...I'll restate my comment and challenge from 11 July, 2005:

Demonstrate to the world what your "ideal" is. It's remarkably easy to be an armchair critic, and even be correct in such criticism... but, until you've personally invested the effort to realize that which you propound with such profundity in practice, they remain just that - words. You may just find that it's not nearly as easy to accomplish as you think, especially given the rather confusing and skimpy SDKs that MSFS foists off on us poor modelers.

It is possible to generate a debug error report after unloading an in-process .dll, but no reasonably sane developer will ever release a "debug version" of their proprietary .dll!

An "all forums search" reports that since joining AVSIM you have started precisely three threads, all three of which are simply "more of the same" stuff:

Yeah I agree, I read thru some of those older posts by Rob and even years ago were more or less the same complaint as in this one.Clearly Rob is upset with no one reviewing or developing products to his standards, yet he continues to buy them as he did in the beginning of this thread and now complains about them. Frankly, if they were all bad products I think the forum here would be flooded with complaints regarding them, however since they aren't I would assume that Rob has maybe something else going on in his system or any combination of factors preventing him from enjoying the addons that many of us have no problem with.Personally, I think this thread is really going no where quick and should be locked. About eveything that could be said, has been already, and it probably isn't going to get any better anytime soon.Just my .02

For one thing there is a review feedback forum, but it is pretty much unused. I suppose in theory this would be a place to register problems not turned up in a review. From what I've seen/read, I think reviewers spend quite a bit of time on their reviews, but at the end of the day, can only really report what their experience is on their system. Now maybe there are some folks with several different testbeds, but that's a chore to keep up. Just the deltas between XP x86 and 7 X64, then throw in everything else (like locale settings or alternative language installs) that could possibly impact FS and addons.scott s..

In this post I start out speaking as an Avsim/simflight/FSXWorld reviewer, but end up speaking as a customer.Scott, You have absolutely nailed it: a reviewer can only report on what he or she experiences, not on what he or she does not experience. Reviewers spend much time on a review. However, if a problem doesn't occur in that time period, then there will be no report about it. When I write a review, I also check out forums to see what people have been reporting about a product, but even then, it depends on the forums one visits. if on that forum a problem is not reported, the reviewer won't know about it and thus can't report about it. Or, the reviewer simply might not have seen the one or two topics reporting the issue. Bottom line is: we can't report on anything and everything that's right or wrong about a product. I have written some infuriatingly long reviews (Robert Whitwell, the Avsim editor, and Miguel Blaufuks, the simflight.com editor, can attest to this), and even then I'm quite sure I missed out on some points. That's just how it is.Every time I see people complain about reviewers, one thing strikes me: readers seem to want the impossible. Readers expect that every detail gets into a review, but that's impossible. Reviewers are humans. That is why the reader should make his or her own contribution by reading more reviews and searching forums about the product. Get a second opinion, do not fully rely on the review you read. That's what I tend to do and the only times I bought a product I didn't quite like in the end, was a product I jumped upon just after it was released.