I'm just happy to that both are near fruition. I own products from both and have to say both are A+ in my book. You honestly can't go wrong either way. Ifly has the current leg-up in my book as solid hardware support(Goflight/CP/Vri, etc) and the best implementation of FS2crew I've seen. PMDG has the history and brandname value. It's just such a win-win for the consumer.

both are near fruition.

How do I get to Fruition? is there a bus that goes there?Al

Hey,This is a Boeing topic, don't bring up the bus. :(

How do I get to Fruition? is there a bus that goes there?Al

PMDG has the history and brandname value.

I still wonder if you can print the pdf manuals or if you're supposed to buy the 170+ Dollar manuals from their shop to be able to use some paper. So far, a clear answer was either avoided or forgotten.The other thing that people mention isn't the fact that 'oops, some PMDG news suddenly appear' but the way they did not before iFly announced their close to release status. I don't have any trouble with a dev advertising his stuff, but if he plays the funny 'what, we have a competitor?' game and is in beta for a month now although he promised to tell people when beta starts, he may not have to act surprised if this influences some of the fine image.Of course, playing fair, people at PMDG are humans too, showing some nerves now. Can't blame them for this.Now, if the PMDG guys play fair on that manual printing question, everything will be fine. And of course those headlights of the aircraft aren't a first in the sim, but a nice addition to the plane.Will it have VC rain effects by the way? Would be nice too and also would stress the fidelity love on the product.

I still wonder if you can print the pdf manuals or if you're supposed to buy the 170+ Dollar manuals from their shop to be able to use some paper. So far, a clear answer was avoided or forgotton.The other thing that people mention isn't the fact that 'oops, some PMDG news suddenly appear' but the way they did not before iFly announced their close to release status. I don't have any trouble with a dev advertising his stuff, but if he plays the funny 'what, we have a competitor?' game and is in beta for a month now although he promised to tell people when beta starts, he may not have to act surprised if this influences some of the fine image.Now, if the PMDG guys play fair on that manual printing question, everything will be fine. And of course those headlights of the aircraft aren't a first in the sim, but a nice addition to the plane.Will it have VC rain effects by the way? Would be nice too.

The printing of the manuals I think is determined by Boeing, but I don't recall an answer as of yet to that question. As for the rain effects, I think it was excluded in favor of other animations because FSX has a hard limit on the total animation amount.

Thanks for your answer, Shane. But if the official statement towards 'print or not not' isn't given, we can only assume things and my question aimed for dropping the assumptions and pointing at the facts.The thread about the "Boeing status" of some flight sim manuals with a big PMDG logo on it surely was an interesting one and I really couldn't help thinking that this no-print status of the pdfs has something to do with the 'buy them for 170+ Dollars' one from the PMDG shop. May be just my impression though.You can watch this pdf, your girlfriend may click it, you can drag it around your systems but you're blocked to print them because .. welcome to our shop. :smile:A real copyright issue would show in the fact that there are no pdfs at all, nothing to view, nothing to look at. But the print-only-blocker may be a clear sign of another "right" blocking things there. 'This data is protected .. , but you can use a TFT, a CRT, some epaper or you can read it aloud. And, by coincidence, you can buy paper in our shop only.' Nobody will have a problem with a company looking for some money, but blaming the copyright for that 'oh, sorry, paper comes at 170+ Dollars' thing is a bit too easy, especially when looking at the nature of any copyright, differentiating between publish or not publish and not between the different ways of reading a document.In short, if you're allowed to watch the pdf, you're allowed to watch the data you've paid for, regardless of the medium you use to display it. Blocking the print option therefore isn't a copyright based thing but a company policy based one.However, until an official statement about the final status of those manuals arrives, we're just talking assumptions of course.Realair showed how it's done on their Turbine. They apologized for the POH to be missing since there's some copyright trouble involved. So it actually was missing, no pdf, no paper. That's ok and reasonable, showing some real protected status, not a fictional one of some kind.If they would have included the pdf (showing all that confidential data when you click it) but told all the interested guys that printing only goes via the shop for 100 Dollars, the impression wouldn't have been that reasonable anymore, would it?And regarding those VC effects. It's mainly a personal preference of mine I think. I can really enjoy them in the sim and may then drop the FMC internal temperature or the not so correct air flow mass going through the air con and the simulation of those "vital" values.But I'm also a guy missing a nice weather radar and wondering why the windshield wipers are included if they have nothing to actually wipe away, so this may be an error on my end too.

I still wonder if you can print the pdf manuals or if you're supposed to buy the 170+ Dollar manuals from their shop to be able to use some paper. So far, a clear answer was either avoided or forgotten.

The Manuals are not PMDG related. They are Boeing Manuals.

Vincent, I really doubt that you pay Boeing for the PMDG NGX. Please correct me if I'm wrong.But even if those manuals were "Boeing", the print-block would have only one reason to be there and this reason isn't related to copyright matters. You can look up copyright laws if you like, they don't include different rights like 'may only be viewed as pdf' (this isn't enforceable), they just differentiate between your right to watch some data or the absence of this right.So it isn't based on the medium where this data gets displayed but on the data (accessible/not accessible) itself. Such medium based restrictions are company wishes only, you can respect them or not and if a company would block your paper prints and then sets up some nice shop where you can buy 170+ Dollar manuals, you may guess what purpose this regulation really has.The MD11 manuals were/are "Boeing" too, but at the time of release that webshop with the fancy paper stuff wasn't running, so they are free to print. May just be coincidence of course.Companies use such "laws" from time to time and may establish a "common law" then (you just have to do it often enough), but, as said, this is not to be mixed up with the laws coming from your government. Common law isn't enforceable at all.As said, until that no-print status of the NGX manuals isn't confirmed, I can only assume, no blaming here. If nobody is interested in some background, I may leave it out of the thread of course and maybe establish some relief.The product will surely be a nice one, but this wouldn't be money business if there wasn't something to watch after scratching the surface. :smile:You can spot how much of a money business this is when looking at the active competition now, started just as iFly announced the close to final status of their 737. Some dev lately said that 'we're all friends'. May be true. But some of those friends earn money by pleasing and teasing other people, so that rather cold capitalism nature enters the game too, more or less.

Deep breaths CoolP......Deep breaths.... Restricted or not any PDFs that come across my path get printed if I choose to print them.

Breathing .. :smile:Graham, that print thingy is just one example of a respect-relationship between customer and dev. If it is the wish of the dev to do this or that and to leave out other things I have no problem respecting them. Playing honest and fair on both sides therefore is the main basis of a respectful acting as all law things (the ones from your government) are clear and and all EULA things aren't law, but company wishes. They may become a somehow complementing law in this or that aspect if they get used (and therefore verified) in a lawsuit, but e. g. that 'you can't print the thing' on a flight sim based product won't receive this status since it would have to make use of the copyright to show that viewing a pdf is ok but printing it is not. Ask your local lawyer, may he be educated in the US or European way of copyrights (they differ), and I really doubt that he will speak of any enforceable status there if he is close to sane.Conclusion? Break it and don't care about it? No! Playing fair is the first thing to do here. Fair would be to offer the pdfs, make them printable and also offering those nice prints in the shop at a higher prize. The flight sim fan than is able to choose whether to go with close to real prints or his own, or a combination of both. The prize comes from the HQ printing and also adds a 'support the devs' margin. Communicate this honestly and open and you will see some fans buying the stuff, with pleasure, not with some fictional "copyright force" behind them.The outcome may be the same, customers using the shop. But it's a big difference if you force them to smile ('bad copyright, we have to sell you prints now') or if they do so because they are really happy.As pointed out before, I'm still assuming intentions (not laws or some EULA relevance, they can be read) here as the official final statement towards the print status wasn't given yet. If it says that all fancy or not so fancy pdfs will be printable, we may all laugh and start getting excited about two fine 737s coming up. :smile:Justifying some broken EULA or print protection isn't the way to go in my eyes. I want to be treated honest and fair and I'm then up to do the same with the first step being the actual buy of the thing then while staying fair and supportive when using it. Idealism, huh? True! Not to be mixed up with simplicity.As there is some competition now, I can choose to go the iFly way, offering no fancy protected manuals and also a 30 day full product trial or .. well, lets see what the policy says. Product features itself aren't the whole game, the product package forms the picture.

No, my worst fears have come true.PMDG have released videos. Meaning they want to appease us for another couple of months. This thing won't be ready before end July, I guarantee you.By that time, I will (hopefully) be flying my iFly 737 from the Boeing field for testing. I have no interest in a company that plays such games with us (Stays quiet for a few months, says they are almost finished, stays even MORE quiet for a few months, releases something to keep us interested, stays quiet, builds even more hype etc etc)PMDG, you need to get off your high horse.

kantk2008, I just spoke about fairness. I don't think that PMDG is on a 'high horse', they just show you what is there to attract you and, maybe, hold you as a fan throughout any other 737 offer to arrive.That is in no way abusive or unfair and maybe we have to be happy about this decision too as it offers some views to get excited about. Even if it takes them some weeks to finish their product, you are now able to decide whether to wait, to buy the other 737 or to buy both.I'm still planning the last step, going both (although my girlfriend will ask questions then, lets see how I can handle that) and we shouldn't fill your minds with some negative thoughts after watching very positive videos and footage about a nice product, don't you think?Yes, they've build a hype before but I can't blame them for this, you can't too, as it always takes a builder and a follower there. :(

I hadn't realised the manuals 'saga' hadn't been resolved. Much as I've spent years looking forward to this release, I actually will not purchase the PMDG version if the manuals are not printable.I have a condition which makes reading or viewing large anounts of data 'ONSCREEN' simply impossible. Even long posts on threads are problematic for me now :(

One thing that bothers me about the NGX as it is shown in these videos, is the inclusion of extraneous menu options incorporated in the FMC, like the PMDG options. While it is certainly convenient to have them there, it does take away from the products realism. It might have been better to keep them in the FSX menu system. Or use popup 2D menus like Captain Sim does with it's icon and animation menus. This way they are hidden unless used.

One thing that bothers me about the NGX as it is shown in these videos, is the inclusion of extraneous menu options incorporated in the FMC, like the PMDG options. While it is certainly convenient to have them there, it does take away from the products realism. It might have been better to keep them in the FSX menu system. Or use popup 2D menus like Captain Sim does with it's icon and animation menus. This way they are hidden unless used.

They are hidden away under maintenance functions in the FMC.. it's practical and convenient to not have to use the FSX menu to change options. Especially when opening/closing doors. It's the way it should be done and the way PMDG has been doing it for a while..