To be honest-as a simmer from 1981-that is exactly as these posts appear...how sad...you should have seen the complaints we got this week...it doesn't help....and that drives me crazy cause I want xplane 10 to go forward...

I work with Laminar.

So do all the users and developers, paid and unpaid !

Unless you can point out a valid reason as to why I should divulge more and how it changes things, there's no reason to clarify much beyond that.

Here are a couple for starters :1. You do sell Laminar's X-plane v10 product thru your website, don't you ? You, therefore have a vested interest in it; hence, some might even say, a conflict of interest. Nothing wrong in that, as long as you are upfront about it !2. Atleast one of your associates, tkyler, is also somehow working with Laminar in the production of the v10 product - as an employee or a contract employee or some version of a contractor.It would clarify for readers where you are coming from.

So do all the users and developers, paid and unpaid !

Yep!

Here are a couple for starters :1. You do sell Laminar's X-plane v10 product thru your website, don't you ? You, therefore have a vested interest in it; hence, some might even say, a conflict of interest. Nothing wrong in that, as long as you are upfront about it !

Correct, I sell X-Plane 10. Never denied it. Doesn't change much here.

2. Atleast one of your associates, tkyler, is also somehow working with Laminar in the production of the v10 product - as an employee or a contract employee or some version of a contractor.

I'm sure he's fully capable of clarifying if you're confused and need it. I don't speak for others. Just myself, and frankly, I haven't read much of any posts here in the X-Plane forums until today.

It would clarify for readers where you are coming from.

I'm coming from my own conclusions and opinions.

So do all the users and developers, paid and unpaid !Here are a couple for starters :1. You do sell Laminar's X-plane v10 product thru your website, don't you ? You, therefore have a vested interest in it; hence, some might even say, a conflict of interest. Nothing wrong in that, as long as you are upfront about it !2. Atleast one of your associates, tkyler, is also somehow working with Laminar in the production of the v10 product - as an employee or a contract employee or some version of a contractor.It would clarify for readers where you are coming from.

This is soooo funny. So m_av, pray tell, when did you get the job as district attorney?You're grasping at straws here, but keep going, I'm feeling entertained.

After spending a lot of $$ on your site and seeing your antics on this board-no more...Just saying..and I am a very reasonble person....and have spent quite a lot on yor site....

So do all the users and developers, paid and unpaid !Here are a couple for starters :1. You do sell Laminar's X-plane v10 product thru your website, don't you ? You, therefore have a vested interest in it; hence, some might even say, a conflict of interest. Nothing wrong in that, as long as you are upfront about it !2. Atleast one of your associates, tkyler, is also somehow working with Laminar in the production of the v10 product - as an employee or a contract employee or some version of a contractor.It would clarify for readers where you are coming from.

And where do you work? What is your job title? What responsibilities are you trusted with?Honestly, you tell Cameron to basically shut up in another thread (after he was agreeing with you) and here you are trying to weasel out an answer to your question on his work with Laminar Research. As if that will somehow alter your perception of these forums, the software or the commercial developers.You're really something else!I'm reminded of a phrase my mother taught me when I was 10 years old and someone asked her a personal question."Mind you're own business"Smart woman.

I wasn't told anywhere I was buying anywhere beta software.I was told I was buying xplane 10 plus $10 shipping.Does this seem reasonable?I've been a beta tester on pro pilot 98 and 99, entire fly series, and fs since fs2002.To be honest I don't want to do it anymore..at least I'd like to be informed.

Geof, I don't know why your surprised by this? Every version of XP has been in perpetual Beta, with the first year of each version being the worst! It looks like XP10 won't be an exception! No developer releases a software package with this complexity and detail, less than a month after it was first integrated. There is no way a proper integration test, let alone a Beta could have been done properly in this time period! (I'm speaking from a Software Engineer's point of view)

After spending a lot of $$ on your site and seeing your antics on this board-no more...Just saying..and I am a very reasonble person....and have spent quite a lot on yor site....

Geof, I'm sure you are a very reasonable person. I'm just not seeing it tonight. I think we just need to face the music and acknowledge that we don't agree.I started the night off with a helping hand, and you immediately went into attack mode (a helping hand that solved your problem seen here). It is your choice to continue dragging that out, but I vouch not to intentionally aggravate you and respect your position to not do business with any retailer, be it my own shop or not. Voting with your wallet is the best way to go about it, and even as much as I would hate to lose you as a customer, I do realize that I cannot please everyone. That said, you will always be welcome to receive support from me or my co-workers. You will not be denied this entitlement.I have watched you edit your posts up to four times (for a single post, in multiples) tonight, with each revision getting "nastier" in tone and I don't wish to keep up with the attacks made by you. My observation is that you always have to have the last word, just like the post I am replying to right now (when things are not directed at you). I can also respect that and will deal with it by acknowledging you will have a reply to this. One which I will not reply to in an effort to keep peace and not further make you feel as though you're being antagonized. I have tried to show you that I do not view you in bad light, and you continually choose to badger and say things like:

Cameron this isn't the org-so over and out doesn't work here.

You guys are your own worst enemies...and as a flight sim enthusiast I find that a shame.

Look at your posts.I am frankly disgusted-and I hate to use that word.

Yeah-seems consistant..

...how sad...

I think your words speak for themselves-and it is a sad day for xplane.

All of this after I have put an effort into trying to understand your situations to offer you a helping hand (seen here, and here) with general X-Plane issues not even related to products I support, and without prejudice. Added to this, I offered you an apology for what initially caused the rift, as seen here.There is not much more I can say, Geof. I'm sorry if I've caused you some ill feelings.

And where do you work? What is your job title? What responsibilities are you trusted with?

I am not selling anything ! I have no vested interest in Laminar or it's product, except as a past user and a potential v10 customer, if and when I feel comfortable enough to get it !

Honestly, you tell Cameron to basically shut up in another thread (after he was agreeing with you) ...

Did no such thing ! Take a look at some of the words and phrases used by you and/or CameronB :"Perfectly acceptable, valid..."; "You and me both, my friend" ; "Have a pleasant evening!" ; "Over and out on this one.."; "Happy simming!", etc.I wasn't looking for acceptance or validation from him or you ! I hate when people try to be condescending or patronizing ! Who talks like that ? Why do some of those phrases have to be used as punctuation by the likes of you and CameronB ?

"Perfectly acceptable, valid..."; "You and me both, my friend" ; "Have a pleasant evening!" ; "Over and out on this one.."; "Happy simming!", etc.I hate when people try to be condescending or patronizing !

You're assuming it was meant that way. You are choosing to view it that way for reasons that appear (in my opinion) you want to have a fight. That, or you are so used to having a fight here that it's just automatic for you to assume no one can share your sentiments or tell you to truthfully and pleasantly have a good day. Not everything has to be negative.Straight from the horse's mouth, it was not meant in any condescending way. You were told I was agreeing with your reasoning and respecting it. I practice that same upgrade process when I can with other software.That said, just as much as you did not want or need one's validation, you also didn't need to post any of what you did.

This is allot more entertaining then simming ! lol....

I think the key problem here is that the 'Xplane representatives' are always attacking (from the get go) what are really quite benign and reasonable questions, it is in a sense putting everyday people off (and putting off potential purchasers)Someone once said, when you post: think not so much about the person your answering too but the other 500 people who read but do not post (the silent witnesses)This thread is a perfect example of that.

I think the key problem here is that the 'Xplane representatives' are always attacking (from the get go) what are really quite benign and reasonable questions, it is in a sense putting everyday people off (and putting off potential purchasers)Someone once said, when you post: think not so much about the person your answering too but the other 500 people who read but do not post (the silent witnesses)This thread is a perfect example of that.

Admit it Tim, you didn't read the whole thread, did you?

I think the key problem here is that the 'Xplane representatives' are always attacking (from the get go) what are really quite benign and reasonable questions, it is in a sense putting everyday people off (and putting off potential purchasers)Someone once said, when you post: think not so much about the person your answering too but the other 500 people who read but do not post (the silent witnesses)This thread is a perfect example of that.

TimIn all seriousness, and with as much courtesy and respect as I can muster, can you show us an example of someone asking a question and a "representative" showing anger and hostility in return.

Yeah maybe it's time for Tom to close down the XP forums. Too many trolls. That will make the select few happy and give everyone some peace and we can get on with XPX elsewhere. Nothing appears to be accepted here or appreciated. It's a shame. But there you go.Actually on reflection it seems to be the way the world is going being reflected here. Nothing but demands and spitting the dummy if they aren't met immediately.Just as I type this another one joined in with this statement "'Xplane representatives' are always attacking (from the get go) what are really quite benign and reasonable questions" LOL are we reading the same thread.