Obviously, we would have to draw up a set of rules to ensure only someone with no previous aviation experience and no obvious flying aptitude could attempt to validate the theory.

Would this be with or without two-way communication with someone on the ground?

We have been here before, and we concluded that it is plausible under some rules.

 

Also, I think the difficulty is overestimated, but the biggest factor is just pure fear!

When one can overcome that it might be possible. If you kow your stuff of course.

 

If it was THAT difficult, then we wouldnt have so much aviators in the world.

 

I flew cessna's in real life and to me the sim is very much like it, albeit its easier in real life due to feedback on the body.

Would this be with or without two-way communication with someone on the ground?

I wasn't being serious. However if you want to write a set of rules then be my guest.

"Can we land a real A320.." - No need, it'll land itself :LMAO:

 

So can a modern Boeing lol

I wasn't being serious. However if you want to write a set of rules then be my guest.

Sorry. My misunderstanding.

My buddy who works the ramp there saw no 738 since he got there at 1400.

 

That's hardly surprising.

 

I think people are taking this way too seriously.

 

Hook

perfectly, NO

jeff

Imagine me waking you up at 3AM in the morning and throwing you in a Level-D 737 sim and telling you that you are somewhere near innsbruck and that you have to do the famous circling approach or you'll die!

 

Now i am not a RW pilot either (i have flown gliders) but if you would wake me up at 3AM in the morning my experience with NGx would make me:

1. establish if enough fuel is onboard to divert

2. If so first climb out of the valley to a safe altitude (using terrain info from ND) using the A/P.

3. call up the fmc to find out if i can divert to a airport with a long enough and cat III equiped runway (probably munich or linate)

4. Establish communication with ground to get assisted by a really good capable 737 instructor

5. Perform an autoland on the best possible runway at munich or linate where atc would make sure all other traffic is out of the way.

6. Start the APU before final

7. Have the aircraft come to a halt on autobrake (i would be able to reverse the engines).

8. Put APU on the bus

9. Shutdown engine 1 and 2.

10. evacuate the passengers i guess. Ground services (firedept etc would be ready at the rw anyway).

 

BTW: i couldn't care less about this talk of Company SOP. We are talking here about a emergency where a non trained individual (me) would be required to put the plane down. THe company cant fire me for not following SOP as i was not hired by them at all.

 

Btw: If everything would be really perfect i might ask tower to taxi to a gate but i guess that would never be allowed.

 

And yes this is dreaming. Never will happen as the 737 is flown by a compliment of two and they even take the precaution still not have the same dinner stuff.

 

My guess is however i could pull off 1-10 and my point is that my sim experience would prevent me from trying to do a circle to land on lowi when possible and know how to get to this alternate solution.

This sort of thing is rather controversial. The instructors at the flying school where i have started my training are all deadset against desktop simulators because:

 

a: The students who use them tend to fly the instruments and not the plane (a bad habit that gets picked up from the narrow FOV of the average screen)

 

b: Most of them tend to over correct. Some cant even maintain straight and level flight.

 

c: A lot of them are not lacking in attitude. And if there is anything a instructor despises its the belief that "since i fly simulators im awesome at the real thing".

 

Being a avid flight simmer for nearly 9 years now, a FS dev, and having had several opportunities to handle the stick (even to landing on my second flight), I would say the biggest factor is hardware limitations.

 

1: The average human has a field of view of 190 deg horizontally x 75 downward x 60 upward. And if you want to look behind its just a simple neck movement that most of us dont even think about. To replicate this in the simulator would need a lot of screens + track IR or the new visual system that Boeing has come out with. In general, not what the average simmer can afford

 

2: When you fly the real thing often enough you can change something on the panel almost without looking at it to make sure your hand is in the right place. Called muscle memory. Again, a extremely complex hardware setup to replicate the cockpit is necessary. Not what every simmer can afford although it is being done quite a bit lately.

 

3: Control resolution. Generally joysticks/yokes/pedals are 16 bit (as is the input that FSX takes for stick and rudder). This means that your input is a integer (no decimal) ranging from -16383 to +16383. Your control deflection is divided over that range. Large control deflections would mean that for every joystick movement, your control is coarser than over a very small deflection. In the real thing (I dont know about digital fly-by-wire systems but i imagine their accuracy is considerably higher than FSX) your resolution is infinite or rather, as fine as your brain and muscles can make it. In short, the precision that you can achieve IRL is way higher than in the sim.

 

4: Control sampling rate. Again i dont know what its like in digital FBW systems but in FSX (and P3D if im not wrong) it is updated every 170 msec or about 6Hz. Anyone who flies a small plane in FSX and then flies the same aircraft IRL will instantly pick up this difference despite how slight it is. I think our muscles are far more sensitive than our eyes. In the simulator there will be a slight delay in response. In the real thing the response is instant. This caught me off guard the first time i flew and i think it does to most sim jockeys.

 

5: Stick forces. Depending on the quality the joystick may be quite loose, quite stiff, or about the same as the real thing when you are standing still. However, if you cant fly the sim with only your thumb and forefinger then your joystick is not providing a accurate representation. Most sim jockey students tend to muscle the aircraft around with their fist wrapped around the stick out of habit because thats what they do in the sim. It works fine in the simulator, some may be able to fly pretty precisely. But in the real thing, pilots fly with thumb and forefinger tips or if the control forces are really high, with all their fingertips. Not only does this take way less energy (you are only using the muscles for your fingers and wrist which are quite small) but you are capable of far higher accuracy. Another thing that sim jockey studs forget is to use trim the right way. In FSX (I cant speak for those with very accurate force feedback sticks) one tends to use the trim to level the aircraft out/trim for dive/trim for climb. In the real thing, you level out with the stick and add trim till you feel the force pushing against you is gone. Now those with good hardware will remember to use the trim....but not the average sim jock. Instead he will try to fly with the stick only....and will struggle to fly with precision. Habits from the sim WILL carry over into the real thing.

 

6: Sense of motion. Well i dont think i need to say much here....you need a full motion simulator to sense accelerations.

 

Bottom line is that the average sim jockey might do reasonably well with a bit of practice since he knows the basics. But if he cant fly straight and level IRL, he probably cant do the same in the sim (with a few exceptions. Natural talent). It depends on the mindset. Those who take lessons learned in the simulator but do their best to overcome the bad habits created by the hardware limits and apply that skill to the real thing will come out on top. So yes it depends on the person.

 

As for the NGX....And ill say this with caution, if you take the above required mindset, combine with a VERY good knowledge gained from the NGX, it could be done. But like has been pointed out here, not all of us actually have that mindset. I have my doubts about the casual simmer (not the serious simmer) actually being capable of this unless he has natural talent.

Excellent post Frag!

 

When you fly the real thing often enough you can change something on the panel almost without looking at it to make sure your hand is in the right place.

 

I understand your point... Just for grins and giggles let me tack on... "Never move a control w/o looking at it."

 

Great information! Thanks.

 

Btw... when I get typed and sitting right seat next to a captain is the day I'll say I can land a B737.

A lot of simmers who think they can fly think that way because they know what button to press on the FMC etc. But I seriously doubt that many would be able to actually "fly" the aeroplane. Pressing buttons in the right sequence is an important part of modern pilot training. But if you don't "know" how to fly the aeroplane then you'll go the same way as AF447.

One of the things that I really noticed (I only have about 7 hours actual flying experience but I think that's enough to get a fairly solid handle on the difference between a cherokee in a sim versus real life) was the fear factor. The first time I approached a runway in low visibility with a slight cross wind I was really nervous, every little bob feels huge, you start wondering "am i descending too fast, could this wind knock me off course, if I mess this up there will be serious consequences (okay not that serious, instructor sat next to me..).

 

That said, I do believe that flying in real life is probably easier - the kinetic feedback from the aircraft and the larger controls, feelings of inertia etc are, quite literally, another sense to help in flight.

 

God I wish I could afford to go again!

Now i am not a RW pilot either (i have flown gliders) but if you would wake me up at 3AM in the morning my experience with NGx would make me:

1. establish if enough fuel is onboard to divert

2. If so first climb out of the valley to a safe altitude (using terrain info from ND) using the A/P.

3. call up the fmc to find out if i can divert to a airport with a long enough and cat III equiped runway (probably munich or linate)

4. Establish communication with ground to get assisted by a really good capable 737 instructor

5. Perform an autoland on the best possible runway at munich or linate where atc would make sure all other traffic is out of the way.

6. Start the APU before final

7. Have the aircraft come to a halt on autobrake (i would be able to reverse the engines).

8. Put APU on the bus

9. Shutdown engine 1 and 2.

10. evacuate the passengers i guess. Ground services (firedept etc would be ready at the rw anyway).

 

BTW: i couldn't care less about this talk of Company SOP. We are talking here about a emergency where a non trained individual (me) would be required to put the plane down. THe company cant fire me for not following SOP as i was not hired by them at all.

 

Btw: If everything would be really perfect i might ask tower to taxi to a gate but i guess that would never be allowed.

 

And yes this is dreaming. Never will happen as the 737 is flown by a compliment of two and they even take the precaution still not have the same dinner stuff.

 

My guess is however i could pull off 1-10 and my point is that my sim experience would prevent me from trying to do a circle to land on lowi when possible and know how to get to this alternate solution.

 

 

Three AM ?!

 

I'd have to hit the head first!

That said, I do believe that flying in real life is probably easier

 

Disregard. Read post wrong!

I would have to say for a guy with no time in command of a real plane... there would be a mess somewhere in the general vicinity of the airport... Ive got nearly 6000 hours and train guys on over 12500 turboprops... these people have a valid Commericial MIFR rating and the amount of times I need to "save the plane" is rather astounding....

 

I am confident I could get one down... but Ive got lots of time and understand hte importance of power managment ..you get behind the power curve on a plane like that and you're asking for it...

 

Flight sim is a game... a fun game... but still a game...