I don't feel I live the life of a sheep.

 

 

they never do.

Its for defense of people trying to knock down my door. the alternative is to just give up, and unlike you apparently, a sheep's life is not for me.

 

 

don't be a dumba$s.

 

If you need a weapon to protect yourself from people around you it simply means that the society where you are living in has failed. It's governments job to keep their citizen safe.

 

We here in Europe have a lot more freedom nowadays. We can easily travel from a country to another inside European Union without any hassle. Our governments do not prevent us from travelling to any country on this planet, while majority of you Americans in practice can't legally travel to Cuba as your government has banned US citizen from buying anything there (unless you get special permission). That's serious limiting of your freedoms that doesn't happen in any other western country, yet you completely ignore that fact.

 

 

 

So far other than any psychopath being able to easily obtain a gun in the US I haven't really seen any more freedoms there than in majority of European countries. It seems like actually whole thing about USA giving more freedoms to their citizen than other countries do is actually just a myth promoted by the propaganda machine, majority of American media.

 

It seems that this propaganda machine has worked really well on you.

 

And trust me, nobody is going to invade the US in your lifetime, your military is the one doing that elsewhere.

If you need a weapon to protect yourself from people around you it simply means that the society where you are living in has failed. It's governments job to keep their citizen safe.

 

the thing that sets us apart is that we don't rely on government; at least not all of us.

 

 

 

 

It seems that this propaganda machine has worked really well on you.

 

And trust me, nobody is going to invade the US in your lifetime, your military is the one doing that elsewhere.

 

 

while i certainly don't expect it to happen, it was the whole purpose behind the 2nd amendment, and i'm excercising my constitutional rights.

 

 

why so foolish?

the thing that sets us apart is that we don't rely on government; at least not all of us.

Yep, I rather rely on our government than a gun. Try visiting to Somalia if you want to see what relying to guns instead of proper government leads to.

 

 

while i certainly don't expect it to happen, it was the whole purpose behind the 2nd amendment, and i'm excercising my constitutional rights.

 

 

why so foolish?

 

I think 2nd amendment and your constitutional rights are just ancient rubbish that would need to get brought to this century to make the US safer country to live in. But of course as you live in a democracy you are completely free to keep your system back in 1800's if you wish just like here in Europe people have supported gun control to create safer society.

 

And I'm seriously not saying that even proper gun control would quickly fix all the violence in your society, also general attitude towards guns and violence would need to change.

Let's try to keep this from an EU vs US and ours is better than yours conversation please...

I think 2nd amendment and your constitutional rights are just ancient rubbish

 

 

i pity you.

Speaking for myself, I admire the USA greatly for its entrepreneurship, patriotism, devotion to family & community, freedom of speech and many other attributes. Nobody's perfect but compared to a lot of what happens, it's a major force for good.

 

At the end of the 18th century, there were around 200 crimes which carried the death penalty in the UK, including stealing anything worth £30 at today's prices, cutting down a landowner's trees, being in the company of gypsies and taking rabbits from a warren. Executions were carried out in public in front of large crowds until 1868. The punishment of burning at the stake was repealed only in 1790 and of hanging, drawing & quartering in 1820. From 1735 to 1799, there were approaching 7,000 executions in the UK, of which 32 were women burnt at the stake.

 

Slavery wasn't abolished until 1834. The Tolpuddle Martyrs were transported to Australia in the 1830's after protesting starvation farm wages. Being a member of trade unions wasn't decriminalised until the mid 19th century.

 

Meanwhile, the British East India Company was conquering India for monopoly profit with its own mercenary armies.

 

The world's moved on since the 1790's thank goodness..........

Yeah, USA was certainly doing way better and was more free than most of Europe +50 years ago, but nowadays that's indeed not true anymore, and in some ways the other way around.

 

I greatly admire what United States was before WW2 and maybe for some time after that too, but then when US became a world police and went to Vietnam & other failures of foreign policy I think it has all went just downhill.

 

 

If you need a weapon to protect yourself from people around you it simply means that the society where you are living in has failed. It's governments job to keep their citizen safe.

 

We here in Europe have a lot more freedom nowadays. We can easily travel from a country to another inside European Union without any hassle. Our governments do not prevent us from travelling to any country on this planet, while majority of you Americans in practice can't legally travel to Cuba as your government has banned US citizen from buying anything there (unless you get special permission). That's serious limiting of your freedoms that doesn't happen in any other western country, yet you completely ignore that fact.

 

 

 

So far other than any psychopath being able to easily obtain a gun in the US I haven't really seen any more freedoms there than in majority of European countries. It seems like actually whole thing about USA giving more freedoms to their citizen than other countries do is actually just a myth promoted by the propaganda machine, majority of American media.

 

It seems that this propaganda machine has worked really well on you.

 

And trust me, nobody is going to invade the US in your lifetime, your military is the one doing that elsewhere.

 

Let's keep the holier than thou attitude out please. Brant, I'm on your side brother but please don't name call. That's what the other side wants us to resort to but we are bigger than that.

 

Sorry but its not society that failed. It's our politicians. You'd be dead in America if you relied on the government to protect you from the gang bangers and drug dealers killing our law abiding citizens. All they did was pass a gun ban in Chicago and the criminals increased their operation ten fold. I find it funny politicians are legally allowed to conceal carry in this country but don't feel we should also have that privilege.

 

Even a small town trustee or mayor of population 100 is considered a peace officer with the right to carry a gun and arrest people. Crazy huh? It's in the books though.

Well yeah I think you are right, after all government is the one with the power to make a society safer or less safe depending what kind of politics they do. Not that I would like government around here Finland much either, things are going worse here too.

Yeah, I should clarify too that it's not from a lack of the government trying. It's just they can't be everywhere at once and they should work on the cause of the problems rather than the symptoms. A gun being used in a crime is a symptom of some type of irrational need, mental illness, want for attention, gang violence, etc.

The Chicago gun laws had deep failure points. As deep as the earlier Washington DC laws. The simple fact, shown by various studies (usually private since bad things tend to happen to government agencies that try to look at the situation) is that once a state becomes restrictive in its gun laws, criminals simply begin importing them from surrounding states with weaker gun laws, and the cycle continues.

 

Hence such concentration on things like the gun show loophole.

 

http://www.mayorsaga...guns_report.pdf

When this thread started and strong, differing opinions were beginning to be stated, the moderators were notified that it was, or might become, a problem, Chase and I looked at the potential and decided to let our members express what they feel, and yes, even to let the huge pink elephant in the room (guns) be addressed. We each stated alternative ways from differing perspectives to look at some issues surrounding the tragedy.

 

Please notice, this is not just a Connecticut, or even an American event. Like 911, and other traumatic catastrophes, this load is being borne on all our backs, as evidenced by the pain being felt worldwide as so eloquently expressed in this thread. So, not everyone sees a gut wrenching introspective dissection about all aspects of the surrounding society as political partisanship but a normal, and healthy part of trying to adjust to a most emotionally painful reality.

 

Freely expressing our shock, horror and internal philosophical conflicts it induces is good, to a point, but great care should be taken to not deliberately push emotionally charged buttons that will predictably cause others to act defensively. This is no time to settle scores between nations or to make stump speeches about the shortcomings of the United States, a nation which is deeply wounded enough as it is. Instead let's try to process this in such a way as it will be beneficial to the ultimate outcome to the societies we live together in.

 

 

I am disappointed to see the recent pages of this thread becoming for the most part a clash of certain values of the USA vs the rest of the world. There is a lot of cheap jingoism being spouted from all sides. Everyone should bear in mind that many of the extreme statements being thrown about do not necessarily represent the collective opinions and sentiments of most peoples being so caricatured. I warned about this thread not becoming a place to settle old national scores or stump speeches about the shortcomings of the United States and vice-versa.

 

To let this descend to a mud slinging free for all as the little ones are being placed in the ground is nearly obscene. Yes, the subject of gun violence should be part of what is being dissected, analysed and vetted right from the get go. How could it not be after what happened? However, each member here, starting with us oldtimers should remember that careful sober thought should accompany our statements. Earlier in the thread we acted better than that. If anyone can't express their opinion without castigating those you may think are on the "other side", then stay out of this exchange.

 

Please clean it up, keep it polite, and choose your words carefully.

 

Kind regards,

There is a lot of cheap jingoism being spouted from all sides.

 

To let this descend to a mud slinging free for all as the little ones are being placed in the ground is nearly obscene.

 

However, each member here, starting with us oldtimers should remember that careful sober thought should accompany our statements.

 

I found myself having to erase an intended post (at least once) out of respect for the OP's intent of this thread.

 

Dear oh dear, I doubt I'm alone in seeing the unintended Irony of that post?

 

Chase did not "name call"... but the attitudes of some on display here in that respect is readily apparent.

"Let's keep the holier than thou attitude out please. Brant, I'm on your side brother but please don't name call. That's what the other side wants us to resort to but we are bigger than that."

 

Dear oh dear, I doubt I'm alone in seeing the unintended Irony of that post?

There's even more irony in that since when were all foreigners on "The other side"? During my visits to the States I've been amazed at how little overseas news coverage I've been able to find. Here in the UK our News is international. Here there is pretty much universal horror at the incident itself, unreserved sympathy for the families and that small community AND and immediate analysis of how each state handles gun ownership, deaths caused by guns per state and how exactly your government can do something to reduce the risk of further episodes like this.

 

Because we don't have guns and don't see them as useful doesn't make us "the other side" does it? When you start to take advise or discussion with those who're friendly towards you as "taking side against you" where do you go for counsel? Where do you go for friends?

 

The invasion that the 2nd Amendment was a precaution against never happened.

 

However in the last century, and sadly into this, some of you guys and girls have served with your forces in countries around the World where they had been invaded. It's too late to ask the Doughboys. They all went to another place. Some of your Grandfathers will remember WWII in many theatres. I don't need to list the areas your forces have served in since I hope. I doubt you'll find a vet that wants to talk about the results of the violence that they saw or perpetrated? If you find one listen to what he has to say. We're burying young guys and girls here at the moment and where they were serving they outgun the enemy with massive firepower. They're still dying though?

 

Geoff