Small nugget of info on v2.3

[Noel 4,499]

 

 

Looking forward to 2.3 release.

 

If they can get to the bottom of the dawn/dusk shadow penalty which in itself is tricky to nail down, i.e. be 100% sure what conditions will always bring this out, so that alone would be really nice to improve on.  

 

I'm running my prior nV Inspector settings and IQ is definitely improved, and performance not bad.  I find the lusciousness, i.e. 100% perfection in smoothness, happens when P3D is running at 60FPS.   On the ground in anywhere I spend time at isn't going to happen, but it's sure nice when it does up on high.  I just flew the QW757 out of KDEN HD to KSBA and had great performance the whole way.  I did see a drop briefly to 25 fps during one part of taxi to 34L from Gate 1, and that was in heavy rain and cloud shadows out to 80K.   This was a dawn.   On take off she was around 32, then really just went up from there.  I landed at KSBA at 38 fps w/ scattered clouds.   When you go from VC to open front view in the QW757 frames improve a lot, up by 14 or more, whereas in the Super MD80 the difference is minimal--just 3 or 4 frames.   In my FSX experience the PMDG NGX wasn't all that much harder on the machine than the QW757 which impacts performance in both sims way more than I would have expected.  It's a very inefficient bird despite its relative simplicity.

[Robert McDonald 167]

It's interesting that so many different members experience such wild variations in performance.  Rob is right, when you start doing the high-definition graphics and anti-aliasing, a single PC, even a strong one, can have hiccups.  That's why I have been trying so diligently to pursue a way that those who might wish it could somehow have multiple PCs and split the work and the graphics loads between all of them.

 

I can testify that this theory indeed holds water on a competitive platform, I have flown it.  The frames and smoothness are amazing.  So while I'm likely the ONLY guy on the planet who wants it, I'm beating the drum hard on the back channel, hoping L/M might yet bring back "Multi-Channel" support to P3D v. 2.x

[DocBird 79]

Talking about improvement of performance:

 

To me it appears as if (in FSX/P3D/P3D2.x) the computer has to calculate and/or render a lot of things that are not of interest at the moment. My impression is (for example) that there are different layers rendered in P3D2. So first the ground (terrain), then the water, then the autogen, then the aircraft. Does that lead to (for example) autogen beeing rendered "behind" a mountain or behind the metal wall of the cockpit?

 

I know that the high compression of MP3-standard was realised because everything that could not be heard from our ears was simply deleted. Would it be possible to do the same in P3D? Would it be possible to prevent that the GPU has to calculate and render autogen trees only to subsequently render the cockpit-wall or a mountain in between so that I don't even see the autogen trees?

[carlito777 712]

I find the lusciousness, i.e. 100% perfection in smoothness, happens when P3D is running at 60FPS.

 

That is exactly my perception. When flying GA aircraft (no matter which one) I always get 60 FPS (with reasonable settings even over Orbx regions) and it is perfectly smooth. Just wonderful. However, when the framerate drops below 60 FPS, the stutters start. Even with 40 FPS there are stutters. It doesn't destroy the immersion but it is not nearly as nice as with 60 FPS+, especially in turns. In anticipation of the standard answers "You just have to turn down your settings": Yes, I know. I could turn them done (no shadows, etc.) to always maintain 60 FPS. But what I prefer as a solution is actually to get back the 1/2 refresh rate vsync option which works in FSX and which gave a perfectly smooth experience at only 30 FPS. Because I think it is a shame that even though P3D2.2 performs excellent (on my system I rarely experience drops below 30 FPS even with cloud shadows), it still stutters in the range of 30-60 FPS. I really don't know if there is a way to get back that 1/2 refresh rate vsync option with an update of the NVidia drivers, because I read somewhere that it cannot be done since the full screen mode is no longer a real full screen but rather a window without borders... But I'm still dreaming to get back that smoothness of FSX at 30 FPS...

[StoreyedTrain 13]

Talking about improvement of performance:

 

To me it appears as if (in FSX/P3D/P3D2.x) the computer has to calculate and/or render a lot of things that are not of interest at the moment. My impression is (for example) that there are different layers rendered in P3D2. So first the ground (terrain), then the water, then the autogen, then the aircraft. Does that lead to (for example) autogen beeing rendered "behind" a mountain or behind the metal wall of the cockpit?

 

I know that the high compression of MP3-standard was realised because everything that could not be heard from our ears was simply deleted. Would it be possible to do the same in P3D? Would it be possible to prevent that the GPU has to calculate and render autogen trees only to subsequently render the cockpit-wall or a mountain in between so that I don't even see the autogen trees?

 

This is pretty much the main thing i mean with technic and optimization.

 

@Rob & Others. (try this and see what results you get)

 

When i select the fastest plane in regard to FPS (Piper J3 Cub, Maule is good too btw) and select a place in the mid Pacific with no land in sight in any direction at a normal height like 1000-3000 feet, and time of day = high noon with hardly any wind and select weather = clear skies, i get around 40-50 FPS. (i don`t use HDR/Lensflare/Traffic)

(this with many settings especially water&shades set to high or max and tesselation set to high)

 

If i then turn water down to low i get an extra FPS boost of about 30-40 FPS, with right now hardly any visible difference, together with the fact that even on high or ultra the CPU or GPU should run the same calculation set over and over again as well, which is what shaders on a GPU were essentially made for, and thus should not make such a big impact. (maybe only 2-3 FPS would be understandable)

 

If i then turn off "allow terrain to receive shade" then my FPS goes up another 50 FPS, when as you read at the beginning of my post there are no shades to begin with because i selected clear skies, which means as Flying_Doc stated something very inefficient is going on with the work the CPU-GPU has to do.

The CPU is per texture making an assessment/calculation when the generic approach would conclusively be able to determine that that would not be necessary.

 

btw if i after that point my artificial head into the sky, i suddenly exceed 200FPS (another 60FPS diff), which is another giant leap that is a bit more that can be expected from a sea that is many times the exact same thing.

 

In other words in this specific situation instead of 40 FPS i get 140FPS with hardly any visible difference.

Which is why i believe my PC would be able to run 200FPS if everything gets perfectly budgetted to bandwidth and processor capability.

(That doesn`t mean ofcourse that Rob`s machine would then not be able to get 300FPS. )

 

More current games in the sense of programming have been needing to find ways to carefully switch between generic mode and a specific mode or even more important find a midway to get the maximum attainable quality out of the scene at present with the hardware used by the owner of the computer.

(which is the most important technic in 3dscene-rendering, and is what FSX/P3D are still quite a lot behind on)

[eminyilmaz 17]

That is exactly my perception. When flying GA aircraft (no matter which one) I always get 60 FPS (with reasonable settings even over Orbx regions) and it is perfectly smooth. Just wonderful. However, when the framerate drops below 60 FPS, the stutters start. Even with 40 FPS there are stutters. It doesn't destroy the immersion but it is not nearly as nice as with 60 FPS+, especially in turns. In anticipation of the standard answers "You just have to turn down your settings": Yes, I know. I could turn them done (no shadows, etc.) to always maintain 60 FPS. But what I prefer as a solution is actually to get back the 1/2 refresh rate vsync option which works in FSX and which gave a perfectly smooth experience at only 30 FPS. Because I think it is a shame that even though P3D2.2 performs excellent (on my system I rarely experience drops below 30 FPS even with cloud shadows), it still stutters in the range of 30-60 FPS. I really don't know if there is a way to get back that 1/2 refresh rate vsync option with an update of the NVidia drivers, because I read somewhere that it cannot be done since the full screen mode is no longer a real full screen but rather a window without borders... But I'm still dreaming to get back that smoothness of FSX at 30 FPS...

 

+1. Exactly same situation here. I don't think there's way to make 1/2 refresh rate vsync work. It's not working in older version of p3d (v1.4). I guess, it's inherited to the v2.2.  You need to maintain 60fps (or whatever full refresh rate is for your monitor, mine is 50) for absolute smoothness. It starts stuttering below this line and becomes worst when you hit less than 20 fps. 

[WarpD 824]

StoreyedTrain,

 

You're amusing. Wholly inaccurate in your conclusions... but it's amusing to read them.

+1. Exactly same situation here. I don't think there's way to make 1/2 refresh rate vsync work. It's not working in older version of p3d (v1.4). I guess, it's inherited to the v2.2.  You need to maintain 60fps (or whatever full refresh rate is for your monitor, mine is 50) for absolute smoothness. It starts stuttering below this line and becomes worst when you hit less than 20 fps.

LOL... you just pointed out the actual source of visual stuttering, and I'm willing to bet no one will actually notice.

[Noel 4,499]

 

 

But I'm still dreaming to get back that smoothness of FSX at 30 FPS...

 

I never had this degree of smoothness even w/ FSX w/ the 1/2 v-sync lock, and I would have to say the sub-60 smoothness in P3DV2 is still better than I had in FSX.  I also had a lot of minor hitches in the video here and there in FSX that I don't have in P3D, but yes if the same smoothness we have w/ 60 could be done at 30 I'm all for it!

[carlito777 712]

LOL... you just pointed out the actual source of visual stuttering, and I'm willing to bet no one will actually notice.

 

 

??? What is that supposed to tell me? But at least you are smart enough to notice... How I hate those arrogant smart-a** comments...

[StoreyedTrain 13]

StoreyedTrain,

 

You're amusing. I don`t agree with your conclusions... but it's amusing to read them.

 

LOL... you just pointed out the actual source of visual stuttering, and I'm willing to bet no one will actually notice.

 

Glad to make your day, i try to be of a pleasant nature generally.

(btw i fixed the inaccuracy of your post)

 

btw In regard to the stutter you are right, i oftenly read people are saying they have microstutter (it has become a fashoinable word combo), when stating as well that they experience that at 20-30 FPS, which is a bit silly.

(Even funnier when immediately people are starting to blame Affinity-Mask, or some other mysterysetting in their config)

 

You can only call it microstutter when you are exceeding your monitor`s refresh in FPS but still have the same experience as when it is below that limit.

[WarpD 824]

??? What is that supposed to tell me? But at least you are smart enough to notice... How I hate those arrogant smart-a** comments...

Ok... LCD screens refresh at 60hz. Some at 50, and some are very adjustable. However... most are at 60hz.

 

If you are not refreshing your view to perfectly match that 60hz, then things are not 'in sync'. When we used CRT tube displays, Gaussian blur would ensure we never noticed, or in short... the last image displayed would remain visible longer than the actual render time. With an LCD, this is no longer true. Their image disappears almost instantly.

 

So... when your frame rates drop below 60fps... especially with vertical sync active... you see what you think are stutters.

 

All of this is one of the reasons the 1/2 refresh behavior is so popular.

[carlito777 712]

So... when your frame rates drop below 60fps... especially with vertical sync active... you see what you think are stutters.

 

Understood. So what is the solution then? Wait for the hardware which can do 60 fps using features like cloud and terrain shadows in overcast weather with SGSS AA or restoring the 1/2 refresh rate vsync? Would it be possible for LM to restore it with reasonable effort or is this no option?

 

For me, smoothness is the most important feature of all. I'm happy to drop eye-candy in order to get a really smooth experience because for me stutters kill the immersion. I just think it is a shame that FSX can look (almost) fluent at 30 fps (with the 1/2 refresh rate vsync) and P3D even though it performs better even with more eye-candy looks stuttery at 40 fps. Don't get me wrong, I love P3D but for me the stutters are really annoying...

[Michael Moe 495]

I have zero stutter above 24fps with VSync on and triple buffering on my GTX780 SC. No way in life my FSX DX10 can give me this kind of smooth and immersion experience.

 

 

 

Michael

[SolRayz 392]

That is exactly my perception. When flying GA aircraft (no matter which one) I always get 60 FPS (with reasonable settings even over Orbx regions) and it is perfectly smooth. Just wonderful. However, when the framerate drops below 60 FPS, the stutters start. Even with 40 FPS there are stutters. It doesn't destroy the immersion but it is not nearly as nice as with 60 FPS+, especially in turns.

 

+1 ..and add trackir to the mix, and see how important it is to sustain 50-60 fps. Makes a world of difference in regards to immersion. This why I'm back to dx10 until the v2.3 roll out.

[carlito777 712]

I don't believe these stories of zero stutters at less than 60 fps. WarpD has explained above why they must be there if fps drops below the monitor refresh rate. They are there. The extent to which you notice them certainly differs from person to person. If you don't notice them, you are lucky. I certainly do see them depending on the situation (e.g. they are much more noticeable in turns than in level flight).