Is there a gate-to-gate tutorial for dummies (like me) who can't get their heads round PF3? The manual seems comprehensive but I don't see any "sample flight" section.

To me, the #1 weakness of all ATC programs currently available is that they don't inform you of the runway to expect early enough and if the runway changes, they don't provide a "Plan B". Granted, all simulated ATC is subject to the whims of the FSX/P3D AI, which can be a challenge - but it shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

Here's an example from my first full flight with PF3 last night (UUDD-LOWW). I had a pretty good experience all the way to the cruise portion of the flight. However, as I neared my TOD, I (of course) didn't hear a peep from ATC about what arrival or runway to expect. I thought to myself, "That's alright, I've read the manual, I need to put on my controller cap and figure out what PF3 is going to do with me for the next 175 miles." Looking at the flightplan that PFPX had so excellently created for me, it calculated that I should probably get the REKLU1W STAR with the MABOD5M transition to the ILS runway 29 at Vienna. Looking at the weather, the winds at LOWW were 260/6, so runway 29 seemed pretty reasonable. I punched in the STAR/Approach into the FMS and about 20 miles prior to my TOD, ATC told me to descend to FL210... at pilot's discretion! "Well, hallelujah !!! I actually got a PD descent... this may work out perfect. Since the STAR/Transition will route me to a midfield downwind for runway 29, PF3 should take over with vectors to the final and it should be a pretty routine approach." Waiting until I hit the TOD, I commenced the descent and after a few further descent clearances and frequency changes, PF3 switched me to radar (approach control). As I turned toward the mid-field downwind descending out of 7000 for 4000, I thought, "This is going to be great, PF3 is going to give me a left turn and vector me to the runway 29 final just as it happens in the real world....

 

Me: "Radar, Austrian 683 with you out of 7000 for 4000." ---

PF3: "Austrian 683, Radar, turn left heading 190, expect runway 16".

Me: "What???!!!, Runway 16? Well let's see what I can do to salvage this..."

PF3: "Austrian 683, maintain 3500 untill established on final, cleared approach, contact tower at the marker."

 

PF3 had left me on a 6-mile final to runway 16 at 5000' with nothing set up to shoot the approach. Apparently the wind had shifted from 260/6 to 220/4 during my descent... so the AI and PF3 were now using runway 16. Unfortunately, this type of scenario plays out all too often when using third-party ATC with FSX/P3D. These ATC programs are pretty dumb and have no capability to compensate for changing weather conditions or at least give you some time to adjust to the change.

 

I ended up self-vectoring myself back around to the final (which is what PF3 SHOULD have been doing) and turning myself on the ILS. The crazy thing is that Proflight has been around a LONG time. You'd think that by now, they would have some logic in there to take care of these scenarios -- but no, just like before, I end up having to take over as controller while my new $55 ATC program is content to sit idle until I contact the tower. I'm really beginning to wonder if any of these developers actually try to fly with the products they create.

Is there a gate-to-gate tutorial for dummies (like me) who can't get their heads round PF3? The manual seems comprehensive but I don't see any "sample flight" section.

 

Page 124 of the Manual - 'Quick Start Tutorial' - should get you started....

Page 124 of the Manual - 'Quick Start Tutorial' - should get you started....

Many thanks, couldn't see the wood for the trees!

I ended up self-vectoring myself back around to the final (which is what PF3 SHOULD have been doing) and turning myself on the ILS. The crazy thing is that Proflight has been around a LONG time. You'd think that by now, they would have some logic in there to take care of these scenarios -- but no, just like before, I end up having to take over as controller while my new $55 ATC program is content to sit idle until I contact the tower. I'm really beginning to wonder if any of these developers actually try to fly with the products they create.

 

Sounds like you know what you are doing so thats not good - same old same old - search goes on

I think one key issue with PF3 is that it makes you catch your ILS at 4 miles from touchdown per default. Which is crazy, isn't it? Normally, I start to descend on ILS 9 or 10 miles out. Why on earth is FAF distance set to 4 miles and FAF altitude to 3000 ASL?

To me, the #1 weakness of all ATC programs currently available is that they don't inform you of the runway to expect early enough and if the runway changes, they don't provide a "Plan B". Granted, all simulated ATC is subject to the whims of the FSX/P3D AI, which can be a challenge - but it shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

Here's an example from my first full flight with PF3 last night (UUDD-LOWW). I had a pretty good experience all the way to the cruise portion of the flight. However, as I neared my TOD, I (of course) didn't hear a peep from ATC about what arrival or runway to expect. I thought to myself, "That's alright, I've read the manual, I need to put on my controller cap and figure out what PF3 is going to do with me for the next 175 miles." Looking at the flightplan that PFPX had so excellently created for me, it calculated that I should probably get the REKLU1W STAR with the MABOD5M transition to the ILS runway 29 at Vienna. Looking at the weather, the winds at LOWW were 260/6, so runway 29 seemed pretty reasonable. I punched in the STAR/Approach into the FMS and about 20 miles prior to my TOD, ATC told me to descend to FL210... at pilot's discretion! "Well, hallelujah !!! I actually got a PD descent... this may work out perfect. Since the STAR/Transition will route me to a midfield downwind for runway 29, PF3 should take over with vectors to the final and it should be a pretty routine approach." Waiting until I hit the TOD, I commenced the descent and after a few further descent clearances and frequency changes, PF3 switched me to radar (approach control). As I turned toward the mid-field downwind descending out of 7000 for 4000, I thought, "This is going to be great, PF3 is going to give me a left turn and vector me to the runway 29 final just as it happens in the real world....

 

Me: "Radar, Austrian 683 with you out of 7000 for 4000." ---

PF3: "Austrian 683, Radar, turn left heading 190, expect runway 16".

Me: "What???!!!, Runway 16? Well let's see what I can do to salvage this..."

PF3: "Austrian 683, maintain 3500 untill established on final, cleared approach, contact tower at the marker."

 

PF3 had left me on a 6-mile final to runway 16 at 5000' with nothing set up to shoot the approach. Apparently the wind had shifted from 260/6 to 220/4 during my descent... so the AI and PF3 were now using runway 16. Unfortunately, this type of scenario plays out all too often when using third-party ATC with FSX/P3D. These ATC programs are pretty dumb and have no capability to compensate for changing weather conditions or at least give you some time to adjust to the change.

 

I ended up self-vectoring myself back around to the final (which is what PF3 SHOULD have been doing) and turning myself on the ILS. The crazy thing is that Proflight has been around a LONG time. You'd think that by now, they would have some logic in there to take care of these scenarios -- but no, just like before, I end up having to take over as controller while my new $55 ATC program is content to sit idle until I contact the tower. I'm really beginning to wonder if any of these developers actually try to fly with the products they create.

Apparently, creating an accurate ATC program for Flightsim is a lot more difficult than most of us think. There isn't any of them that are perfectly accurate for every scenario. None of them that I've ever used, RC4,VOX,PFE,PF3, will give you the expected runway at TOD. All things being equal, VOX has been the most consistent for me but as of right now is not compatible with P3Dv3. PFE will give you runway changes while on approach but like you I have been left too high for the approach that they have vectored me on. We'll have to wait for that near perfect ATC program. As of right now, it doesn't exist. 

 

 

To me, the #1 weakness of all ATC programs currently available is that they don't inform you of the runway to expect early enough and if the runway changes, they don't provide a "Plan B". Granted, all simulated ATC is subject to the whims of the FSX/P3D AI, which can be a challenge - but it shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

Actually PROATC-X does, it gives you your takeoff runway, and expected departure at clearance. Landing runway, expected approach, and transition , usually right before the beginning of the STAR, you can check both at anytime by seeing the Flight info option. and it gives you options to change the approach and or runway used.

 

 

Actually PROATC-X does, it gives you your takeoff runway, and expected departure at clearance. Landing runway, expected approach, and transition , usually right before the beginning of the STAR, you can check both at anytime by seeing the Flight info option. and it gives you options to change the approach and or runway used.

 

You're right... ProATC/X is better about this - but you have to look over at the moving map to get it... which is kinda cheating :-).  Hopefully it will eventually communicate that information audibly in a more timely manner.  I don't have as much of an issue with the departure procedures in any of these programs... they each do them a little differently; but they all implement them reasonably accurately.

I think one key issue with PF3 is that it makes you catch your ILS at 4 miles from touchdown per default. Which is crazy, isn't it? Normally, I start to descend on ILS 9 or 10 miles out. Why on earth is FAF distance set to 4 miles and FAF altitude to 3000 ASL?

 

That's a little odd, Darem - default is (or should be) set @ 7.  If not done already, check out Options 2, Advanced Options, Approach and check/reset your FAF Distance to what you're comfortable with.

 

hth  :wink:

 

 

I think one key issue with PF3 is that it makes you catch your ILS at 4 miles from touchdown per default. Which is crazy, isn't it? Normally, I start to descend on ILS 9 or 10 miles out. Why on earth is FAF distance set to 4 miles and FAF altitude to 3000 ASL?

 

That's one area where RC4 does it better... it tries to give you a long enough final and normally waits until you're low enough before turning you.  But it will still ruin your day if you're arriving on the "short" side of the airport... and it really has no meaningful support for STARS.

 

The PF folks will argue that you can play around with the flightplan and specify a descent profile to get you down earlier - but who wants to spend so much time doing that (and subsequently have it all go to waste when the planned runway changes).  On top of that, many flightplanners strip out the SIDS/STARS in the saved .pln file, so you would have to go in and manually enter all those waypoints in the planning process just to go back in again and manually assign them altitudes in PF3.  Thanks; but no thanks!

I'll try nine and will report back.

 

 

e: "Radar, Austrian 683 with you out of 7000 for 4000." ---

PF3: "Austrian 683, Radar, turn left heading 190, expect runway 16".

Me: "What???!!!, Runway 16? Well let's see what I can do to salvage this..."

PF3: "Austrian 683, maintain 3500 untill established on final, cleared approach, contact tower at the marker."



PF3 had left me on a 6-mile final to runway 16 at 5000' with nothing set up to shoot the approach. Apparently the wind had shifted from 260/6 to 220/4 during my descent... so the AI and PF3 were now using runway 16. Unfortunately, this type of scenario plays out all too often when using third-party ATC with FSX/P3D. These ATC programs are pretty dumb and have no capability to compensate for changing weather conditions or at least give you some time to adjust to the change.

 

This is a very big problem with ATC programs. The cause here is those winds are essentially nothing. An airport would probably not change the runway in use as they are essentially calm under 5-6 kts. So the question is why cant AI and ATC be sure to use a default runway and keep it that way when winds are 'calm' irregardless or wind direction change under 6kts.

Is there a gate-to-gate tutorial for dummies (like me) who can't get their heads round PF3? The manual seems comprehensive but I don't see any "sample flight" section.

In the forthcoming vid (it takes more than 8 hours to upload just half an hour :mad: ) The a/c will start at a gate and is given a gate to taxi to at its destination. You tell PF3 the gate/stand number you want to arrive at and it's saved for posterity. That said if the airport is exceptionally busy someone else may steal your designated gate. The resolution for that is to make the radius in afcad too small for anything larger than an ant!

I think one key issue with PF3 is that it makes you catch your ILS at 4 miles from touchdown per default. Which is crazy, isn't it? Normally, I start to descend on ILS 9 or 10 miles out. Why on earth is FAF distance set to 4 miles and FAF altitude to 3000 ASL?

Set your FAF distance to 7nm in the options 2 tweaks section

That's one area where RC4 does it better... it tries to give you a long enough final and normally waits until you're low enough before turning you.  But it will still ruin your day if you're arriving on the "short" side of the airport... and it really has no meaningful support for STARS.

 

The PF folks will argue that you can play around with the flightplan and specify a descent profile to get you down earlier - but who wants to spend so much time doing that (and subsequently have it all go to waste when the planned runway changes).  On top of that, many flightplanners strip out the SIDS/STARS in the saved .pln file, so you would have to go in and manually enter all those waypoints in the planning process just to go back in again and manually assign them altitudes in PF3.  Thanks; but no thanks!

 I don't know where everyone is getting 4 nm FAF distance from. The default is 7 which is fine for normal approaches.

 

 

This is a very big problem with ATC programs. The cause here is those winds are essentially nothing. An airport would probably not change the runway in use as they are essentially calm under 5-6 kts. So the question is why cant AI and ATC be sure to use a default runway and keep it that way when winds are 'calm' irregardless or wind direction change under 6kts.

 

Exactly correct... and this not the fault of the ATC programs.  They are at the mercy of the sim in this regard.  Until LM or Dovetail open up the AI logic (or <gasp> fix it themselves); it is what it is.  That doesn't get the ATC programs off the hook though... what if the wind was 15 kts?  In that case a runway change is justified and ATC needs to compensate by vectoring you in such a way as to allow for a successful approach.  Pointing you at the airport and telling you to have a good day is not the way it's done in real life  :smile: .

In the forthcoming vid (it takes more than 8 hours to upload just half an hour :mad: ) The a/c will start at a gate and is given a gate to taxi to at its destination. You tell PF3 the gate/stand number you want to arrive at and it's saved for posterity. That said if the airport is exceptionally busy someone else may steal your designated gate. The resolution for that is to make the radius in afcad too small for anything larger than an ant!

Set your FAF distance to 7nm in the options 2 tweaks section

 I don't know where everyone is getting 4 nm FAF distance from. The default is 7 which is fine for normal approaches.

 

Except for issue that PF3 doesn't seem to care whether you're at 3000, 5000, or 10,000 when you arrive at that 7 nm point.  Issuing a descent clearance to the FAF altitude and having the logic to make sure there's enough distance for the aircraft to make it down there are two different things.  That's where PF3 needs to be more intelligent.