Jim Young

Great FPS - P3DV4.5 with many Photo Scenery enabled!

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Yesterday I few in the PMDG 747 from FlightBeam KIAD to FSDT Chicago and enabled several photo sceneries for the trip for some immersion.  Had MSE Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois enabled.  Plus all of my Drzewiecki Design (DD) scenery was enabled for Seattle, NY and Miami (it has photo scenery in it so it would load during the flight too.  Had ASP4 and Ultimate Traffic Live enabled.  Flight extremely smooth with the following FPS (based on FSUIPC5 utility):
 

5089672 System time = 23/04/2019 18:21:54, Simulator time = 17:45:02 (22:45Z)
  5089672 *** FSUIPC log file being closed
Minimum frame rate was 26.6 fps, Maximum was 80.5 fps
Average frame rate for running time of 4843 secs = 52.9 fps
Maximum AI traffic for session was 268 aircraft

I do not know where the 26 FPS occurred but assume it was at KIAD while taxiing.  I have pretty much maxed P3D settings except I do not use autogen.  I thought I would post to let others know the possibilities.  System specs in my signature.  One of the biggest issues with photo scenery is loading time at the beginning of the flight and guess that it took about 3-4 minutes to load at Gate 16, KIAD.

 

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Posted (edited)

It looks like autogen just flat out kills performance. Man...it's like a dinosaur in terms of how it's called and rendered.

I wonder if increasing the visibility range of autogen but leaving it at the lowest settings is a good trade off?

Edited by ahsmatt7

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Had my autogen turned off as it really is not needed with MSE.  FlightBeam and FSDT did a good job in and around the airports with objects to help increase the immersion when landing.

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Honestly, I do not really get the sense behind this topic. Of course, without autogen, FPS are high. And of course, the better the photoscenery, the less you will miss autogen, especially when flying at 35'000ft or above. But to me, P3D without autogen looks like FS9 especially during approach and when flying slow and low. And even if many airports nowadays offer some surroundings with buildings, it still looks like they are sticking out of the scenery when approaching an airport and no autogen surrounding it. Not an option for me, I will never buy any photoscenery without autogen...

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Well the problem when flying around America for me, desert and rocky areas even with open LC look bad. 

I did a flight from KPHX to KSAN the large areas once out of the city’s really need PR. I installed all the areas around there a few years ago and the view of the huge open dessert etc was breath taking. But like Chris says once you get down low in an approach Auto gen is needed.

But am still thinking of buying some again like for huge open land classes,

KLAS is a very good area that is transformed by PR.

Compromises as always. 

The best I did once was managed to delete the area around KPHX airport and city leaving the PR for were it’s best but somehow lost all my work.

Nothing comes close to PR for looking amazing over the right areas were there is no need for AG 

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The issue in v4.5 is a large amount of scenery objects such as Orbx OpenLC or a Orbx region. If you do not have that... P3D should run OK

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Yesterday I did a flight from Amsterdam to Nice ( PR scenery + custom AG ) and it looked great.

I arrived when dust began and saw no framerate drop.

 

 

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6 hours ago, AnkH said:

nd even if many airports nowadays offer some surroundings with buildings, it still looks like they are sticking out of the scenery when approaching an airport and no autogen surrounding it. Not an option for me, I will never buy any photoscenery without autogen...

This is definitely not true for almost all commercial airports installed from FSDT and FlightBeam.  FlightBeam has many trees  surrounding Dulles International (KIAD).  Autogen looks so fake to me and it really offers no immersion as the buildings are wrongly placed and are not realistic looking.  Getting products like DD's Seattle, Miami, NYC, WashingtonX and corresponding MSE is truly the way to go.  I will never turn on Autogen and enjoy my flight simulation experiences.

MSE Grand Canyon is an example where you can fly down inside the canyon and enjoy the scenery.

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I agree that default autogen looks rubbish, but the autogen in (for example) ORBx TrueEarth South looks really nice when I am on final approach to various UK airports. This is why I am so impatient for ORBx TrueEarth Central!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nyxx said:

Well the problem when flying around America for me, desert and rocky areas even with open LC look bad. 

I did a flight from KPHX to KSAN the large areas once out of the city’s really need PR. I installed all the areas around there a few years ago and the view of the huge open dessert etc was breath taking. But like Chris says once you get down low in an approach Auto gen is needed.

But am still thinking of buying some again like for huge open land classes,

KLAS is a very good area that is transformed by PR.

Compromises as always. 

The best I did once was managed to delete the area around KPHX airport and city leaving the PR for were it’s best but somehow lost all my work.

Nothing comes close to PR for looking amazing over the right areas were there is no need for AG 

Agree that the American West is transformed with photoscenery. Can't believe it took so long for me to do it. 

If there were a way to have Orbx regions products for the major cities and MSE for everything else, that would be the optimal solution. And for areas Orbx regions don't cover, have some kind of exclude for urban areas so you could still have autogen there. Or better yet, somehow be able to layer autogen on top of MSE. I'm guessing this isn't very easy otherwise MSE would have done it already. 

I guess what I've described is essentially what Orbx is doing with their TE products. I wonder if MSE will ever incorporate autogen since they already have a huge library of photoscenery to work off of. 

Edited by bbain1187

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1 hour ago, Jim Young said:

Autogen looks so fake to me and it really offers no immersion as the buildings are wrongly placed and are not realistic looking.  Getting products like DD's Seattle, Miami, NYC, WashingtonX and corresponding MSE is truly the way to go. 

Your personal opinion, fair enough. I can however not understand how someone can say photoscenery without autogen looks better than any scenery with autogen. Compare MSE pictures/screenshots from South England and those from ORBX TE South England and at least for me, no question which product looks more immersive... Or take the novel TE Washington: in your MSE product, the hills and valleys are just blank ground textures that only look good from 3000ft or more above. Bush flying without autogen? Impossible. Waterplane landings on a photoground scenery where rivers and lakes are just photos? Impossible. Different Seasons? How does your MSE product look like in spring or in autumn, when trees mostly have coloured leaves? Or in Winter? Always the same...

But that was basically not the point. The thing is that you call your thread "great FPS" and the reason is obvious: no autogen. As I said, nobody will have FPS issues when turning autogen completely off...

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I'm a big fan of Megascenery V3 and have about 450 gigs worth. Totally transforming, immersive - for me. Plus now their downloading and installation procedure is painless and easy - a big improvement.

Dave

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2 hours ago, AnkH said:

But that was basically not the point. The thing is that you call your thread "great FPS" and the reason is obvious: no autogen. As I said, nobody will have FPS issues when turning autogen completely off...

There are more than a few users here suggesting others upgrade to 4.5 when LM has clearly stated that there’s a performance issue serious enough to warrant a rare hot fix. It’s bad advice for a huge number of people here. Just wait. 

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5 hours ago, Chapstick said:

There are more than a few users here suggesting others upgrade to 4.5 when LM has clearly stated that there’s a performance issue serious enough to warrant a rare hot fix. It’s bad advice for a huge number of people here. Just wait. 

I thought the performance issue was NOT with P3DV4 by itself but with products like Orbx/FTX.  P3DV4.5 works great with compatible many addons but some add-ons are not compatible and P3D wants to fix that.  For me, if I have performance issue with a certain add-on, I would disable it until a fix was released.  It is clearly apparent though the LM techs did something with their code to make compatibility with some Orbx products.  I wholeheartedly endorse anyone and everyone to upgrade to the latest version.  Since I have not installed any Orbx/FTX product for v4.5, I see no issues whatsoever.  So yes.  I'm one of the guilty who proudly endorses upgrading to the latest and greatest.

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3 minutes ago, Jim Young said:

I thought the performance issue was NOT with P3DV4 by itself but with products like Orbx/FTX.  P3DV4.5 works great with compatible many addons but some add-ons are not compatible and P3D wants to fix that.  For me, if I have performance issue with a certain add-on, I would disable it until a fix was released.  It is clearly apparent though the LM techs did something with their code to make compatibility with some Orbx products.  I wholeheartedly endorse anyone and everyone to upgrade to the latest version.  Since I have not installed any Orbx/FTX product for v4.5, I see no issues whatsoever.  So yes.  I'm one of the guilty who proudly endorses upgrading to the latest and greatest.

Rob Ainscough found a 30% drop in FPS with a default install. 50% with Orbx. Any way you slice it, this is not the "greatest" version LM has released.

Source: https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=133165&start=60

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9 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I agree that default autogen looks rubbish, but the autogen in (for example) ORBx TrueEarth South looks really nice when I am on final approach to various UK airports. This is why I am so impatient for ORBx TrueEarth Central!

I totally agree.  Their TrueEarth technology looks great!

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Rob Ainscough found a 30% drop in FPS with a default install. 50% with Orbx. Any way you slice it, this is not the "greatest" version LM has released.

Source: https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=133165&start=60

Almost every version of an update to a major product like P3D has issues and these issues are found and fixed in another update (i.e., the HotFix).  Thanks for bringing to our member's attention of an impending update/hotfix because of a couple of issues.

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1 hour ago, Jim Young said:

I thought the performance issue was NOT with P3DV4 by itself but with products like Orbx/FTX.  P3DV4.5 works great with compatible many addons but some add-ons are not compatible and P3D wants to fix that.  For me, if I have performance issue with a certain add-on, I would disable it until a fix was released.  It is clearly apparent though the LM techs did something with their code to make compatibility with some Orbx products.  I wholeheartedly endorse anyone and everyone to upgrade to the latest version.  Since I have not installed any Orbx/FTX product for v4.5, I see no issues whatsoever.  So yes.  I'm one of the guilty who proudly endorses upgrading to the latest and greatest.

Unfortunately this is one of the few times you are wrong Jim. I have 30% lower performance with 4.5 and do not use the blamed Orbx products. And Rob A. did extensive testing on virgin 4.4 installs and 4.5 installs (i.e. no add-ons) on two separate systems and came up with the same results.

It was these results, fed to L-M with full documentation -- graphs, measures, as well as videos -- which convinced them to act so quickly. As you must know, if there are any problems with P3D they always need them demonstrated with a virgin install. They are not making specific changes in P3D to make it more amenable to individual application programming quirks.

Pete

 

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8 minutes ago, Pete Dowson said:

Unfortunately this is one of the few times you are wrong Jim. I have 30% lower performance with 4.5 and do not use the blamed Orbx products.

I did not say there was no FPS issue.  But, when one reads my OP and sees that I had the PMDG 747 loaded plus ASP4 plus UTLive, and had loaded 8 MegaSceneries and I still got over 52fps on the average and a high at 82 fps.  What difference, for me, would it be for me as I got great performance, stability, and a smooth flight based on data taken from your excellent FSUIPC5 program.  I don't think anyone could have accomplished the flight scenario in say, P3DV3 or earlier or even in FSX.  When you load 8 Megasceneries, that uses a lot of resources.  For me, P3DV4.5 was more than sufficient for my flight from FlightBean KIAD to FSDT KORD with high p3d settings. 

It will be interesting to me to see what the fps are when the hotfix is released.  Will I then get an average of 82 fps during the flight and have a fps over 100 as the highest?  Me thinks not.

I was just taken aback by the rude comment made by Chapman that some of our members are recommending P3D be upgraded to version 4.5 when LM clearly indicates performance issues.  Does my OP indicate performance issues?  Me thinks not and I was only trying to bring out this point with my OP. 

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You still did not get it, did you? I repeat: when disabling autogen fully, it is absolutely no surprise nor anything special to reach the FPS numbers you have (they are even relatively low to me for your hardware...). If you like to fly around without autogen, that is up to you, most people do not and for those, v4.5 introduced a FPS loss from 30% to 50%. Which is of course totally relevant, because those people do not have an average of 52FPS like you do without any autogen, but rather 30-35FPS. And for those, 30% less FPS is a killer... That is all people trying to tell you here...

And in contrast to you, I would not be surprised if you would also get about 30% more FPS as soon as the 4.5 hotfix is released. Of course not 82FPS in average, but maybe something around 65-70. Besides that, you are right about 8 Megasceneries using a lot of ressources, but I doubt that this affect FPS numbers that much.

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In fsx you had a bug in the core system setting autogen to none caused problems... did LM fix that in P3D?

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11 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Unfortunately this is one of the few times you are wrong Jim. I have 30% lower performance with 4.5 and do not use the blamed Orbx products. And Rob A. did extensive testing on virgin 4.4 installs and 4.5 installs (i.e. no add-ons) on two separate systems and came up with the same results.

It was these results, fed to L-M with full documentation -- graphs, measures, as well as videos -- which convinced them to act so quickly. As you must know, if there are any problems with P3D they always need them demonstrated with a virgin install. They are not making specific changes in P3D to make it more amenable to individual application programming quirks.

Pete

 

Indeed, the problem isn't specifically related to OrbX, it's just that OrbX sceneries typically use a LOT of scenery objects, which exacerbates the problem. Other scenery products and probably even default scenery are affected by the bug which was introduced in P3D 4.5.

Either way, a fix is on the way, so for now just stick with 4.4. If you've upgraded to 4.5 and don't want to downgrade, you'll have to live with using lower settings for the next few weeks.

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Just tested my both pc’s with Unlimited. Framerates about the same in V4.5 as when using 4.4.

I cannot explain why some have those framerate drops and others not. Hopefully the upcoming hotfix will solve this for all that suffer from it...

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On the subject of autogen I have when flying at night set the autogen to zero don't see it flying the airliners, on 4.5 performance I have been tweaking but find performance down slightly on 4.4 have considered going back, updated the Client Scenery and Content will I have to rollback all three or just the Client in 4.4, till the fix is released. 

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48 minutes ago, GSalden said:

Just tested my both pc’s with Unlimited. Framerates about the same in V4.5 as when using 4.4.

I cannot explain why some have those framerate drops and others not. Hopefully the upcoming hotfix will solve this for all that suffer from it...

You are spot on, the only way i do get the problem is if i load regions of Orbx and Netherlands, for now it's in the hanger (this was the same in 4.4), I have tons of mega scenery airports and add ons with great framerates, (fs global mesh vector base, vector, open lc europe and north america obviously installed ) hopefully the hotfix will fix this issue. Autogen is set to medium.

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