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cepact

I really hope they'll keep updating the airliners

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I bought a new PC and have to pay 120$ for the simulator. I don't want to spend any more money 

If the A320, 747 and 787 reach Aerosoft quality it would be perfect for me. I refuse to pay 200$ for PMDG airliners.

 

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I will most probably buy the FSL Airbus when and if it comes to MSFS.

Nevertheless I also hope the gap between the default A320 and the FSL quality would continuously be narrowing with further development of MSFS.

 

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Well welcome to the hobby, Cepact. I think many of us old timers are used to the sim itself only being the tip of the iceberg when it comes to cost. That is also why I think many are amazed with the value you get for your purchase of the sim. In previous iterations of my simulator I would have to pay for 

  • the scenery (and it wouldnt even look that good)
  • the skyscapes (and it wouldnt even look that good)
  • the cities
  • the raindrop effects on the windshield
  • the sound effects (which seem fantastic on many of the default airplanes, at least the GA)
  • and much, much more

Ive spent probably around 5k USD on my pc, and another 5k in various addons and flightsim related software of the years. Its not necessairly a cheap hobby, but I think MS actually just made it a bit more aquireable for more people than before.

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Andreas Stangenes

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Posted (edited)

I would never expect that much from any sim default hangar. It is what it is at release time and will, at most, suffer some bug fixes, but I don't really thing additional functionality should be expected.

That's why when buying a new flight simulation platform I focus mainly on the "simpler" GA prop aircraft, at most a turboprop, and look fwd for some reference developers to fill in the gaps.

We're paying mostly for the gourgeousness of MFS, for the World Scenery that is unbeatable at present standards, a default ATC which not being perfect is a big improvement over previous versions, same for the AI, weather, even built in VATSIM client. What more can I ask for a base sim?

Of course I am eager to see the first announcements of add-ons by reference MSFS historic 3pds, maybe also a few from the X-Plane side willing to expand their horizon.

They're surely all welcome in MFS, for the brightest possible future...

Edited by MFS-Only
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Posted (edited)

You'll have to make a difficult choice here;

Which ones are you Type Rated on?

You should focus on those.

That's quite a family of birds there.

Good for you if you can fly all of them perfectly.

Edited by Will Fly For Cheese

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I expect the default airplanes to be like  .. what if carenado made an airliner.. well.. maybe a little better than that....  but..  I mean you get the 'gsx' type stuff to increase immersion and competent at least looking MCDU ( i havent used it)

 

So its  $120 / 30 == $4 per plane.. and thats not including the airports/ortho and core sim ... I think, from what ive seen on videos, that is an awesome deal.

 

.. And i assume, in time, when you are ready...  there will be $60-$80-ish  airliners available also if you dont want to go full PMDG level investment

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If you think that the default airplanes will be anywhere close to FSL, PMDG, or maybe even Aerosoft, you may be disappointed.

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Posted (edited)

Simple economics will tell you that the default jet airliners will be 'built to a price' in terms of complexity, since if Asobo had made something to rival a 70-150 quid add-on airliner, they would have probably had to have spent about five years making it, and if they did, they would hold it back as a payware add-on rather than throwing it in a sim basically for free. For the vast majority of users of the sim who don't want to spend days reading manual before they can even do a flight in a pleasing manner, that will probably be just fine. You've seen those leaked videos right? With everyone landing on external view because they've no idea how to use an ILS. Like it or not, this is what a lot of MS's target audience is.

So if you want something which is of the standard of - for example - the Aerosoft A320 series jets, and expect it to be in the default hangar, you are either a supreme optimist, or in for a very big disappointment.

It comes down to time, and of course time is money. Sure, you can throw more people at a project and shave some time off its development, but you're still paying for more people so it doesn't make it cheaper. Not only this, it gets to a point where you can only throw so many people at a project before it becomes counter-productive, since everyone has to spend time consulting with where everyone else is up to instead of just getting on with doing it and knowing exactly where they are up to, which is why one man band developers can often get a mid-level project out on their own in a reasonable amount of time although much of this is because these are often a labour of love rather than an attempt at riches beyond their wildest dreams.

Back with the big developers, it's a bit like if you wanted to paint a long brick wall. If it takes one person half an hour to paint that wall, theoretically if you put two people on the job starting at either end, there is no real need for them to consult on anything, they just do half each and it takes half the time, so in this example they'd be done in fifteen minutes. Now you could put three people on it, with a guy starting one third of the way along and that way, you'd have it done in ten minutes, but if you tried to put ten people on the job, they'd be getting in each other's way. Same with developing add-on jet airliners in terms for staff numbers if not exactly the same in terms of expertise. Nevertheless, it gets to a point where there is an optimum number of people for the job, and for complex airliner add-ons from TPDs, that's roughly five years, and it was even longer than that when FSL made their A320.

Nothing of that nature is going to be in the default hangar along with the sim for the all-in price of 59 quid, there's just no way that could make any kind of economic sense. Probably even moreso for the vast majority of people who'll buy the new MS sim, because most people would not want a super-duper detailed A320 of the kind which FSL made, and certainly would not want to pay about 100 quid for it, which makes matters worse for those who do want one, since the developer needs to charge even more based on how many people actually would buy it and them still make a profit from having invested five years of paying people before any payment was received. Which is why it doesn't cost 100 quid, but 140 quid. There is a reason you don't see PMDG and FSL airliners advertised on Steam for FSX, and it's not because they don't want the exposure, it's because they know that's not really the market for them.

Conversely, if you are knocking out less complex eye-candy stuff at the rate Carenado do, the new market for the new sim is basically a dream come true for them, because they'll probably be able to actually drop their prices a bit and still make a lot off volume sales. This is exactly why Aeroplane Heaven have made that Control-Ezy stuff too - fast turnaround simple pretty jets they can sell for 12 quid a pop, which you can jump in and start with one press of a button and whizz around in pretending you are Maverick in Top Gun. 

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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Posted (edited)

So the question then is what is the development time for pmdg and Aerosoft to bring their fleet into MSFS?
 

surely it can’t be 5 years as it was when they first developed From scratch for P3d.  This is not new development, rather it is adapting or porting over to a new sim. I can’t think of a major aircraft (other than the DC6 which is not the best reference) that was ported over to a completely new sim so Im not able to make an educated guess.  
 

If this porting takes around 2 years, will the VFR flying keep us satisfied until then? I think not. Which is why I’m still keeping my P3d and xp11 until we get decent airliners in MSFS. 
 

For reference it’s been 4 months since P3d v5 came out and pmdg has still not updated their 777 yet. So when do you think we will see their 777 in MSFS going by that trend?

Edited by vin747

Vinod Kumar

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Posted (edited)

That's why I think Just Flight held back their 747-200, it was due for release about two years back, then it all went quiet about it, but it's still listed on their new developments and they keep showing updated pics of it. I suspect it's going to be a release for the new MS sim, and I don't think they'll be the only ones who've done that kind of thing. Some of it will also depend on what kind of deals MS or Asobo have been able to broker with TPDs. Clearly MS don't want to release a shiny new sim and not have any shiny new products for it available until years down the line. Lots of this information will likely be embargoed until the release day.

I don't think you needed to be a clairvoyant to work out that as the release of the new sim approached, it would impact on the sales of many products for other sims, so unless the bosses of TPD companies were stupid, they'd have to have figured they need things in the pipeline. I'd be willing to bet pretty much all of the bigger TPDs have products pretty near ready to rock for the new sim and they're probably only waiting on the release candidate being finalised in this last bit of testing. I'd guess it would be a matter of weeks after the release of the new sim that stuff goes on sale from them.

Recall if you will, that Just Flight had a very good GA aeroplane out for Flight Sim World when it was still in beta, and they've done the same with Aerofly FS (twice), so they are not slow when it comes to this kind of savvy planning.

If this isn't the case, then they're not as smart as I think they are.

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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The main criteria for a default airliner, and for any other default aircraft for that matter, is that it look good, be easy to fly, and have a working autopilot.  This is because you will have a lot of people who have never flown anything in a flight sim before.

Anything you get beyond that will be icing on the cake... as long as it doesn't make it unflyable by a first time simmer.

Note:  I have totally ignored everything about airliners in the sim and on the forum.  I have no idea what they do and do not do.  I don't know what works and what doesn't, but you can read the change logs to find out.  Those should also give you a good idea of the complexity.

But don't expect a default airliner to ever turn into one with PMDG complexity.  Unless they offer it as paid DLC, of course. 🙂 

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Posted (edited)

To me the interesting question is not if the default A320 will reach  the FSL level (most probably not), but if Asobo keeps continuously improving the existing default aircraft, both airliners and GA, after release. With that I mean not only bug-fixing but adding system depth and flight model finetuning over time.

I hope they will do.

Edited by RALF9636
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

I've spent probably around 5k USD on my pc, and another 5k in various addons and flightsim related software of the years. Its not necessairly a cheap hobby, but I think MS actually just made it a bit more aquireable for more people than before.

In XP you get a lot for free (Ortho, NOAA weather, ...) but you have to spend hours installing and tweaking and even then it's far from perfect. You can see that it's a patchwork.

MSFS will have a basic version of an authentic MCDU of the A320 (and hopefully the other airliners as well) - something that even some XP payware does not offer.

Personally, I'm looking forward to what 3rd parties will put on top of a solid sim.

Edited by tweekz
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2 hours ago, LHookins said:

The main criteria for a default airliner, and for any other default aircraft for that matter, is that it look good, be easy to fly, and have a working autopilot. 

Yes, and no.  I was surprised how advanced the default X-plane 737 was (before Zibo came along), especially when compared to the FSX/P3D default aircraft.  A good autopilot with working FLC mode, a rudimentary but capable FMC and the updateable nav database made all the difference.  Just shows what became possible only a few years after the release of FSX.

If FS2020's default airliners are at a similar level - and they have no reason not to be - then many casual simmers will be more than satisfied.

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12 hours ago, cepact said:

I bought a new PC and have to pay 120$ for the simulator. I don't want to spend any more money 

If the A320, 747 and 787 reach Aerosoft quality it would be perfect for me. I refuse to pay 200$ for PMDG airliners.

 

You are still a completely free to don't buy everything, what are you don't want pay for 🙂 It isn't requiered, if you don't need a PMDG quality of add-on. No problem 🙂

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