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fogboundturtle

Flight model in MSFS according to aerosoft

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I can really confirm this point he was making:

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See, in FSX/P3D there is a major change in physics when there is no wheel (or technically, contact point) on ground. It toggles from a ground model to a flight model in some way. Rather sudden. That’s why you always have that little ‘jump’ into the air when you lift off. On landings it is incredibly hard to a real ‘greaser’ because there is no real smooth transition between flying and driving.

I've been flight simming since FS4, and my landings were never as smooth as in MSFS.

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Posted (edited)

So, if I understand him correctly, he is basically saying that the older sims are flying on rails, and even xp11 to some degree, and msfs is much more fluid, dynamic and real life like. He is also talking about the "flight model" needing some work. I'm not sure what that means. For me, a flight model would be associated with a certain aircraft or family of aircraft, and not something universal in the sim (ie. they talk about about a 1000 individual simulated points on the aircraft that all dynamically respond to forces, and those 1000 points are going to be individual to the specific aircraft being modelled, aka flight model). The way he talks about it makes me a bit confused, because he mentions several types of aircraft (robin and a320 among others), and how he would refrain from commenting on their flight model/behaviour. He talks about it in such a way that it sounds like a universal flight model shared between all aircraft in the sim.

The way he uses the term Im not sure if I should enterpret it to mean the way the flight models interact with the forces in the gaming world, or the systems or the whole package, and if that pertains to only some or all of the aircrafts.

Nevertheless, he also says that he has no doubt that msfs will blow the other sims out of the water eventually. 

Edited by Andreas Stangenes
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I can really confirm this point he was making:

I've been flight simming since FS4, and my landings were never as smooth as in MSFS.

Now what does that tell us? Given how landings look like with these vertical speeds just before touchdown, or especially something like this, this doesn’t seem to be hard at all. No matter how you smash that poor plane on the tarmac, it’ll just stay there like glued to the ground. Not exactly sure how believable that is. I’m still looking forward to getting my own opinion on it, but these videos leave me somewhat irritated regarding landing behavior. And no, I don’t count myself in that mentioned „how it should behave“ group of people, I did actually land a number of aircraft irl, prop and jet. No idea about the rest of the flight model, wonder how my control devices will feel on the sim then. That a 152 is quite stable if you don’t mess with it is probably no big news to many, maybe the fact that not only small GAs but also airliners might routinely need some lateral trim every now and then during a flight might be. I’d not mind to have „less than perfect“ aircraft in the sim, that don’t always fly perfectly straight in every situation. Would add a lot imho, but maybe that’s just me.

Still an interesting read, so thanks for posting the link here.

Edited by badderjet
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That sounds actually far better than the negativity we were exposed to the last weeks:

 

I was visiting Asobo and one of the devs showed me how they model air flow over objects. They asked me to fly at a steady speed, steady heading, steady altitude over a runway with steady (!) cross wind.  Every time I got in the wind shadow of a hangar, I had to do some serious correction.

[...]

Aerodynamics are far less ‘stable’ then they used to be (good!) and making a good flight model is far more complex then in FSX/P3D. It compared more to X-Plane as it also models actual airflow over surfaces. But the air in X-Plane is rather static while it is not in MFS. You can trim all you want but 90 seconds later the aircraft will wonder off. And it should.

Yesterday I told you that MFS smashes the other sims in it’s representation of the world. Today, about the flight model I am not so sure.  In the default aircraft I still feel some tweaking needs to be done, but the characteristics or the aircraft I know (like the Robin), is most certainly there. As add-on developers we are still trying to learn what is possible. Most certainly more than ever before, but we need to understand it. We need hundreds of hours of testing and tweaking. In the end I think FSX/P3D will be beaten hands down, X-Plane got a major fight on its hands.

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35 minutes ago, badderjet said:

 No matter how you smash that poor plane on the tarmac, it’ll just stay there like glued to the ground. Not exactly sure how believable that is.

I've BEEN saying this, but hey i'm not a real pilot so my thoughts don't count lol Maybe thats how it is in real life? 

39 minutes ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

 He talks about it in such a way that it sounds like a universal flight model shared between all aircraft in the sim.

Would makes sense because as of right now, the A320 and the GA planes seem to move the same to me.  Maybe they are working on that as well.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, tgsweat said:

I've BEEN saying this, but hey i'm not a real pilot so my thoughts don't count lol Maybe thats how it is in real life? 

Would makes sense because as of right now, the A320 and the GA planes seem to move the same to me.  Maybe they are working on that as well.

Well, from looking at hours of videos I dont feel they move the same way. BUT they are moving through the same world, and that is what they have in common. So if this "movement through the world" is what is meant by "flight model" then ok. Making a sim is really complex, and I don't have a plan of fully understanding how it's done anway. I leave that to Asobo and the major players 🙂

Edited by Andreas Stangenes
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Every aircraft has many parameters for flight dynamics in their own plain text files, so each aircraft's responses are set individually.

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38 minutes ago, badderjet said:

Now what does that tell us? Given how landings look like with these vertical speeds just before touchdown, or especially something like this, this doesn’t seem to be hard at all. No matter how you smash that poor plane on the tarmac, it’ll just stay there like glued to the ground. Not exactly sure how believable that is. I’m still looking forward to getting my own opinion on it, but these videos leave me somewhat irritated regarding landing behavior. And no, I don’t count myself in that mentioned „how it should behave“ group of people, I did actually land a number of aircraft irl, prop and jet. No idea about the rest of the flight model, wonder how my control devices will feel on the sim then. That a 152 is quite stable if you don’t mess with it is probably no big news to many, maybe the fact that not only small GAs but also airliners might routinely need some lateral trim every now and then during a flight might be. I’d not mind to have „less than perfect“ aircraft in the sim, that don’t always fly perfectly straight in every situation. Would add a lot imho, but maybe that’s just me.

Still an interesting read, so thanks for posting the link here.

I bet the one who controlled the planes in those clips you linked to had the assisted landing setting turned on. This sim would not last 10 years with that bad physics i bet. Hope it’s not that bad.

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By the way, if anyone know what is meant by "flight model" in this context, please do share it with me/us 🙂 One would perhaps think it is obvious, but as I consider the details, it is not so obvious. 


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If there is indeed any truth to what he's saying - and I assume there is - then this will be a major plus point.

Anyone who has ever flown an old taildragger aeroplane off a grass strip will know that when they get up on the main wheels, they skip and bounce on the take off roll as speed gathers, often getting weight off the wheels as they launch off an undulation, where there is not quite enough lift to make them fly, but the added impetus of going off a 'ramp' sees them briefly off the deck from time to time, before they eventually genuinely hit flying speed and launch into the air off one of these bumps and stay airborne. You can even see this in biplanes, as the lift wires and the landing wires alternate between going taut and slack, and flap and twang around. If the new sim can get close to this, it will be a big step forward because FSX, XPlane and P3D do not do this. I would hope that grass strips can have the kind of uneven surface which will make this experience possible for the sim to emulate, because the moment of take off is, if not the magic moment of a flight in a light aeroplane, but certainly one of the big ones.

In a similar vein to another point made, I too have flown plenty of light aircraft but never driven a real jet airliner - only an A320 simulator of the kind used to actually train crews on a couple of times - so I would not profess to be any kind of expert on how an A320 handles in all conditions. But much of the time doesn't matter because these are invariably on autopilot when being operated in the real world, so I would contend that it's probably more important that the little aeroplane fly right most of the time, and that an airliner gets the flare and ground effect right on landings, because for take offs you just rock down the concret until Vr, then get the deck angle to 10-12 degrees and the wings do the rest. Four hundred feet after that, you flip on the autopilot and Bob's yer uncle.

Beyond this, what I want to see, is a genuine attempt to take the emulation of realGA aeroplane behaviour to the next level, so that things you have to be mindful of in the real aeroplane convey more of what it is like to actually be driving an aeroplane...

AoA increasing in a descent making a stall more likely and the noise of the airflow indicating this. Likelihood of a spin increasing in a sloppy low speed turn and the spatial location of the airflow drag noises being a clue to this. Elevators shuddering at low speed high AoAs, indicating you are getting near the stall and your seat seeming to judder or your stick/yoke juddering visibly in the cockpit, and if you have a FF stick, this being implemented physically for real. A visual representation where the view snaps up to emulate the neck-snapping drop you experience when you plunge into a spin and the massive and scary increase in speed where you have to be swift but gentle in easing the thing out of a dive whilst the rapid build up of airflow noise adds a sense of urgency to the proceedings.

This is all the stuff which makes flying challenging and fun. It's why you'll drag your @ss to an airfield at 6am and be the first outside the hangar, blowing on your hands to keep them warm, when anyone with any goddam sense would still be in bed.

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Alan Bradbury

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33 minutes ago, Chock said:

Anyone who has ever flown an old taildragger aeroplane off a grass strip will know that when they get up on the main wheels, they skip and bounce on the take off roll as speed gathers, often getting weight off the wheels as they launch off an undulation, where there is not quite enough lift to make them fly, but the added impetus of going off a 'ramp' sees them briefly off the deck from time to time, before they eventually genuinely hit flying speed and launch into the air off one of these bumps and stay airborne. You can even see this in biplanes, as the lift wires and the landing wires alternate between going taut and slack, and flap and twang around. If the new sim can get close to this, it will be a big step forward because FSX, XPlane and P3D do not do this. I would hope that grass strips can have the kind of uneven surface which will make this experience possible for the sim to emulate, because the moment of take off is, if not the magic moment of a flight in a light aeroplane, but certainly one of the big ones.

I feel your pain. I've operated on undulated grass airfields. Taildraggers too. Current sims lack realism on that.

 

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2 hours ago, badderjet said:

Now what does that tell us? Given how landings look like with these vertical speeds just before touchdown, or especially something like this, this doesn’t seem to be hard at all.

Wow.  Those links.  Makes me worry...will I be able to fly this sim?   I might have to start over from scratch.

Mathijs is wrong about one thing though.  A2A Simulations.  Their aircraft have a nice peaceful transition from flying to driving, if you land it that way.  Or you can plop it down on a short field.  Greasers aren't always the best landings.

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Rhett

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Posted (edited)

I have noticed the GTA V characteristics on landings and ground handling in some videos. I just wish we could get an honest answer as to what the aerodynamic settings are in the options in those videos, if there is something like that? 

Edited by reignman40
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