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6 minutes ago, jbdbow1970 said:

PMDG stick to P3D and leave MSFS alone the community will fix the planes for free. Those old watered up FSX sims are in the past. 

You dont want PMDG level planes in MSFS? There is only so much that can be done with default aircraft. And I would also like to have wider range of jets than default listing. 

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5 hours ago, Schwarzgruber said:

I rejoiced too early to think that it would be released in early 2021. It will be a long time to wait 1 year to fly this splendid plane! 

If PMDG says one year read 2 years (A PMDG YEAR has 24 months) thats 2023 at best.

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Harry Woodrow

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Sometimes we tend read too much into things.

What can be objectively gathered from Randazzo's words is:

1. The SDK needs more work before a simulation of this complexity level can be made for MSFS. That SDK work is being done.

2. ASOBO takes MSFS very seriously and are fully dedicated to the success of this platform. On that note, PMDG call ASOBO their friends and are working jointly to bring the 737 to this platform.

3. PMDG remain convinced that MSFS will be the long-term-best platform over the next decade.

4. They hope for a 3Q21 or 4Q21 release with a slim chance of it happening in 2Q21.

While it is a bit of a boomer for those of us that love the PMDG 737, taking this all negatively and crapping on MSFS seems like a very immature fanboyish way to go about this hobby.

While we wait for this developing wonder to be completed, I think it's better that each of us engage in whatever flight simulation scenario makes us happy and stop acting like entitled children.

 

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J.C.

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Does anyone else see a dissonance between

"...we are seeing a sharp up-tick in the rate at which the features we need are being implemented to MSFS.."

and

"Unfortunately what we didn’t count on was just how big that work-load would be on the platform side or how slow the update rate would be."

A sharp uptick in the rate, against a slow update rate? That appears contradictory to me?

"....there are still some major technical challenges that remain to be solved before it can adequately support a product as complex as NG3."

IMHO this just means they can't yet accomplish all they need to with the unfinished state of the SDK.  I'm not technically knowledgeable enough about webassembly to comment in an informed way, but I guess from other developer's comments that maybe RR is also diplomatically signalling the current webassembly implementation simply doesn't provide all the functionality needed?

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Kevin Firth - i9 10850K @5.2; Asus Maximus XII Hero; 32Gb Cas14 3200 DDR4; RTX2080Ti

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9 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Does anyone else see a dissonance between

"...we are seeing a sharp up-tick in the rate at which the features we need are being implemented to MSFS.."

and

"Unfortunately what we didn’t count on was just how big that work-load would be on the platform side or how slow the update rate would be."

A sharp uptick in the rate, against a slow update rate? That appears contradictory to me?

"....there are still some major technical challenges that remain to be solved before it can adequately support a product as complex as NG3."

IMHO this just means they can't yet accomplish all they need to with the unfinished state of the SDK.  I'm not technically knowledgeable enough about webassembly to comment in an informed way, but I guess from other developer's comments that maybe RR is also diplomatically signalling the current webassembly implementation simply doesn't provide all the functionality needed?

there are three type of 3PD approaches:

1. All in MSFS and not really care other platforms (Aerosoft)

2. Those who announced they were going to have their products in MSFS but still a little bit cautious about timelines. Will still be working and launching new products in other sims (PMDG)

3. Those who said "we will talk about it when we know something/ there is nothing to share because we haven't even started". They are still working on their other sim projects. (FSlabs, Leonardo, Tfdi, Majestic, etc)

So, the only common factor here is that MSFS is not ready for high fidelity Aircarft simulation/development, and it may take a while before we can enjoy them.

 


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I think Mr. Randazzo decision to delay PMDG sells ( hence invoice incomes ) 1 year, come after months of frustration fiddling with a so huge quantity of FS bugs which Asobo seems not be able to deal with, at the moment.

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14 minutes ago, ttbq1 said:

there are three type of 3PD approaches:

1. All in MSFS and not really care other platforms (Aerosoft)

2. Those who announced they were going to have their products in MSFS but still a little bit cautious about timelines. Will still be working and launching new products in other sims (PMDG)

3. Those who said "we will talk about it when we know something/ there is nothing to share because we haven't even started". They are still working on their other sim projects. (FSlabs, Leonardo, Tfdi, Majestic, etc)

So, the only common factor here is that MSFS is not ready for high fidelity Aircarft simulation/development, and it may take a while before we can enjoy them.

 

You are correct.

It might take much longer than some people thought of being able to fly complex airliners.

And Damian from Hifi Simtech has also announced that they cannot even start on a MSFS product as many parts in the SDK manual say “Not ready”. 
Source :  https://forums.hifisimtech.com/threads/september-2020-development-update.13135/post-59024

But as most people used XP/P3D with complex airliners before MSFS, why not do that again in the mean time, if you want all systems to be working?

It is not so that we are allowed to have only one sim on your pc...


For those who very quickly deleted XP/P3D after the release of MSFS and are anxious to fly a complex jetliner they have to rebuilt these sim again which might take some time.

Myself I will continue flying in P3D, hoping for a complete EA in V5.1 while following the development of MSFS....

 

 

Edited by GSalden
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54 minutes ago, GSalden said:


For those who very quickly deleted XP/P3D after the release of MSFS and are anxious to fly a complex jetliner they have to rebuilt these sim again which might take some time.

 

 

I ditched P3d for X-plane and missed the A320 Aerosoft plane which was my favourite. Now I ditched X-plane for MSFS and miss the Zibo 737.

I can't go back. In the end the graphics and simulation of flight is better than complex fms or simulated cockpit switches, for me at least.

I've never bought PMDG so not overly concerned with this. I am more ifly or aerosoft airliner level 🙂

What I am interested in is who will be the new entrants to the aircraft building world? I can see bigger developers or studios who will muscle in especially with the considerably richer rewards available and the publicity the sim is getting. I have a feeling PMDG may matter less in the msfs world.

Mathijs over at Aerosoft posted that he reckons its 1m users for msfs right now and 15k for P3d. So I stand by that "new players" will enter the market and with MSFS stating they have 10 devs on the sdk I think it could be sooner rather than later.

Edited by sanh
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7 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

You’re reading skills are terrible if you truly think that pmdg won’t have a product in msfs.

My reading and interpretive skills are usually pretty shrewd. I don't think they won't have a product in MSFS at some point, but there seems a great deal of bridges to cross on the way. For starters a FMC mechanism that actually retains the flight plan when you load a saved game. Maybe PMDG are actually whispering in Asobo's corporate ear as to how they actually create a flight sim out of what they've done so far.

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I can wait. PMDG has enough of my money already...

Having a blast with MSFS with all the mods and add-on sceneries being released even without complex jetliners.

The CRJ from Aerosoft seems to be coming along nicely, let's see how that one turns out. 

 

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4 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

Throwing more money and manpower at a dying platform" when they have not made anything for X Plane 11, choose to build an aircraft very few wanted while abandon support for the DC6 in Xplane 10?

That's how you do market research, which is very similar to election polls:

- You take a SAMPLE of the population, like 1-2% tops ( you cannot ask *everybody*, it will be too expensive! )

- You analyze the sample in proportion to its size

- You try to guess who's gonna win the elections.

 

This, translates in the simulation market into:

- You take a sample, by making the DC-6, which surely cost LESS to make than your main product ( you cannot convert the 737 just as a "test", it will be too expensive! )

- You analyze the sales of the DC-6 in XP11 *compared* to the sales of the DC-6 in FSX/P3D.

- You try to guess how much your main/expensive to make main product will sell, by analyzing the ratio of sales of the "sample" product compared to the "full" product, over the two different platforms.

Edited by virtuali
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I wouldn't worry so much about this. PMDG announced in November 2019 they were going to support MSFS 2020 and at that time, I think the only assurance they got from Asobo is the SDK would allow C++ development, and possibly some details about the fact it would use Webassembly.

The first SDK came out sometime in December and, back then, it included very basic things, mostly geared to doing Gauges with some helpers functions to convert from existing C++/GDI+ into the new Webassembly C++ and the new graphic C++ APIs ( NanoVG and FsRender ).

The crucial points for serious airplane ( but also utilities ) development are:

- How many API calls not part of the standard C++ library will be allowed to call from Webassembly module. They are written in C++, but run in a Sandobx, which means they don't have access to *ANY* API which is not part of the standard API. They can't call anything from the huge Windows API and they can't call any external API or external .DLL that many developers use to not have to reinvent the wheel each time, like file decompression, file encrypting, database access, speech recognition, etc. Basically, a WASM module cannot do anything other than execute C++ code, or call a limited set of API that has been explicitly exposed by Asobo, so the first critical point is how many of these will be added in the future.

- How many features from FSX Simconnect work and, more importantly, work correctly. This is another current issue with the SDK, which quite a bit of other developers are waiting to be fixed with updates, because right now only a subset of the FSX Simconnect works.

- The ability to debug code easily and reliably, to run the debugger inside the sim without issues or crashes, to trust the debugger to set breakpoints, inspect variables and to be able to restart the airplane code without restarting the sim and not impact stability, because these things have an huge effect on your productivity.

All these things needs improvement, and everybody is waiting for them, but if Asobo and Microsoft really wanted to make an "arcade" sim, they wouldn't bothered to add support for Simconnect, WASM, NanoVG, FsRender and a GDI+ wrapper, it must have taken lots of work to do that, even in their current incomplete state, it's just that updates are not coming as fast as we would like to, but I'm sure they will come.

Personally, I'll be happy to see a PMDG airplane for Christmas 2021, and it would be still a remarkable achievement: while doing a scenery is reasonably easy, bringing a complex airplane is another matter entirely. Give it time.

Edited by virtuali
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EXCELLENT post above by "Virtuali":

 

The best outcome from Robert's - honest - post at PMDG is that contrarily to previous iterations of the MS FS franchise, MS / ASOBO are now dynamic and cooperative with the 3rd parties / developers / users.

As it is right now MFS already offers a lot to be used and enjoyed. I am enjoying it almost as much as I recall having enjoyed MS FLIGHT, and for me that means a LOT ...

OTOH, as someone interested inn tweaking the aircraft flight dynamics, and looking at systems modelling I see a lot lacking, starting with documentation on how the new engine works. We have a nice set of docs with the SDK, but it is rather incomplete in terms of some of the new functionalities, and probably most of those functionalities aren't even available already, but the ASOBO team is working hard, and ABOVE ALL IT LOOKS TO ME AS PATIONATELY, to turn MFS into a memorable flight simulation platforms when we look behind in, say, 10 - 20 years.

I have had the chance of exchanging ideas with some active programmers working in ESP / P3D products and, for instance, the typical C++ gauge programming approach is something they really want back to be able to add their Magic to the box... This, alone, could represent a rather complex adaptation of the present platform, and take months to build. Meanwhile they're busy adding the World updates which will certainly please most users... The flightsimulator.com forums are filled with demands of this and that features, reports of bugs and limitations, that ASOBO will probably try to address along the ride while trying to adapt to some specific major players, like PMDG...

Above all, here's the DYNAMICS and COMMITMENT of ASOBO to the tittle,  which are indeed one of the greatest features of MFS.

 

Edited by jcomm
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Uninstalling flightsims is a temptation I can never resist...

 

 

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