I'm personally done with MSFS post 3rd patch..

[pmanhart 176]

2 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Anyway, your comment is not really relevant to getting a better product out of MSFS.

LOL, this applies to 90% of the topics and posts about MSFS...

[Nyxx 6,993]

6 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Adam/LM had done streams before, LM respond to significant issues with a HotFix.  Anyway, your comment is not really relevant to getting a better product out of MSFS.  MSFS 200 development resources should be and could be doing a much better job than this don't ya think?  I guarantee you LM don't have 200 resources working on P3D, so whatever these 200 resources are doing, they need to be managed better.

Cheers, Rob.

OK Rob.

I get what your saying loud and Clear.

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

18 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

 

The twitch stream didn't really answer anything absolute and no commitments or delivery dates, just lost of "that's a good idea", "we'll fix it", "more to come" (heard it all before) 

Still better than what P3D devs did back then, with their full PR vague answers. I think nobody can deny their efforts and commitment to this. We got 3 patches and a world update. Sure, lots of bugs still but probably we are dealing with an early release. And yet, this is still better than anything we have seen before

I also don't think you are in a position to tell Microsoft how to manage their resources. How many simulators have you developed? How many third party addons have you developed?

Edited September 30, 2020 by Pastaiolo

[psolk 3,040]

5 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Adam/LM had done streams before, LM respond to significant issues with a HotFix.  Anyway, your comment is not really relevant to getting a better product out of MSFS.  MSFS 200 development resources should be and could be doing a much better job than this don't ya think?  I guarantee you LM don't have 200 resources working on P3D, so whatever these 200 resources are doing, they need to be managed better.

Cheers, Rob.

A lot of those 200 are probably dedicated to giving an out of the box experience that took layers upon layers of paid add-ons to be able to barely hold a candle to in limited portions of the globe in previous sims...  You know those taxiways and runways with sloping the likes of which we've never seen at a global level.  There is so much more they have delivered out of the box vanilla that all the add-ons in the world can't provide the same experience...  Does that mean it's perfect heck no, does that mean it may take time, heck yes, does it still make it the best vanilla out of the box "starting point" we have EVER had in FS, absolutely... 

[airlinejets 709]

11 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Which LoDRadius?   Terrain or Objects?  From my testing of LoDRadius performance dropped to 7 FPS around KLAX and 26GB VRAM usage (per my other screehshots).  They claim the patch didn't change anything with LoDRadius and yet when I set it from 2.000000 to 9.000000 I don't get the same visual results as I did prior to this patch (I can do side by side video if anyone is interested).  Maybe it's all being limited server side, if so, then say so.  Asobo CEO did say he "saw something" but I wasn't entirely sure if it was in reference to this issue of LoDRadius or not - very vague?

The twitch stream didn't really answer anything absolute and no commitments or delivery dates, just lost of "that's a good idea", "we'll fix it", "more to come" (heard it all before) ... and Jorg goes on to say they have almost 200 people working on it followed by "it takes time" (per Jorg interview the project started in 2016) ... and yet 3 patches later the product is worse than it started.  

It felt like the Twitch stream was more an emergency response to what clearly is many users having significant issues with each patch that comes out.

Cheers, Rob.

I think they did really well in their stream. I'm not sure where you're headed with your comment.

[psolk 3,040]

7 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

False, but I'm not here to convince you otherwise and you don't know what I've gone thru with LM either or you choose to ignore it.

Ask yourself, do you see 200 development resource effort in MSFS on release day where 1/2 the buying users couldn't even get it installed?  and 3 patches later it's worse than initial release?  I just don't have the blinders of desperation on influenced by less costly so all issues are forgiven.  I want and have always wanted the best simulator possible, not the cheapest simulator possible.

What I see are highly critical FSX/P3D/XP users and/or ex-users that are now being suddenly very tolerant of MSFS significant problems/issues ... why?  You and others had valid criticisms of P3D, XP, FSX, why not for MSFS?

Cheers, Rob.

What I see are a lot of defensive P3D users very akin to the FS9 users who constantly bashed FSX and P3D for not being able to provide the same performance with 100% AI and no stutters at major airports for years until P3D got it right...  I guess we all see different things in the mirror...  I guess no one remembers when the FS9 users labelled FSX and P3D VFR only sims when they were released.  It's ok, I have a short memory too sometimes... 

Edited September 30, 2020 by psolk

[Nyxx 6,993]

Rob you know I have the upmost respect for you. You do know that, don't you?

But Sorry to say it, but you always seem to come across you have a chip on your shoulder about MSFS, ofc I would be wrong but it feels your more than happy to put MSFS down and up P3D. Sorry it just feels like that to me. Like this is a perfect e.g. Half Rob! Half the people?

19 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Ask yourself, do you see 200 development resource effort in MSFS on release day where 1/2 the buying users couldn't even get it installed?  and 3 patches later it's worse than initial release?  I just don't have the blinders of desperation on influenced by less costly so all issues are forgiven.  I want and have always wanted the best simulator possible, not the cheapest simulator possible.

What I see are highly critical FSX/P3D/XP users and/or ex-users that are now being suddenly very tolerant of MSFS significant problems/issues ... why?  You and others had valid criticisms of P3D, XP, FSX, why not for MSFS?

Cheers, Rob.

I am not going to argue with you as for what I said above. It's just how your coming across to me. I say all of that with no ill feeling its just how it seems to me. I will leave it at that.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Nyxx

[DylanM 1,069]

4 hours ago, Andrewpilot35 said:

For me water after latest patch is also worst than ever, looks like big blue stain and nothing else.

Have you reconfirmed all your graphics settings? I noticed this on my second test rig initially, but saw all the graphic options had be reset to "low-end". Changed the presets back, restarted the sim and the water was back where it should be.

Edited September 30, 2020 by DylanM

[wthomas33065 994]

5 hours ago, wthomas33065 said:

UPDATE:  Someone did mention that perhaps LOD was narrowed to save on bandwidth usage per person.   Now THAT is something I could believe in.  I did some testing today and noticed pop in, but I can't be sure that pop in wasn't always there.   I do understand why MS might want to limit an individuals bandwidth usage, and narrowing down LOD radiuses would be the obvious answer.  

If that is a reason, (and mind you it's PURE conjecture on my part, I have no proof of this), then what might be an acceptable compromise would either to allow users to purchase a subscription or bandwith pass that would allow extended LOD radius.  OR tweak the rolling and personal caches in such a way that If you are flying in a "cached" area, your draw distance is greater because you have those resources in cache.

That theory has been thoroughly debunked by today's Twitch Q and A.   Belay my last.  Happy to be wrong.

[psolk 3,040]

17 minutes ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

They said they have a big team working on DirectX 12 right now. We are not seeing everything they've been working on with the current patches.

To put things into perspective, Lockheed Martin have been working with the ESP engine for 10+ years, while Asobo got their hands on it 3 years ago. And it was a lot more archaic for 2017 standards compared to 2009-2010.

10+ years and people are still debating which "version" of P3D to use hoping each one solves the prior one's problems without breaking compatibility or introducing new issues yet after 10+ years they still have the same issue as a 2 month old product and people have the gall to come and criticize a practically brand new team and product for struggling with what LM has been battling for years... 

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

Just now, psolk said:

10+ years and people are still debating which "version" of P3D to use hoping each one solves the prior one's problems without breaking compatibility or introducing new issues yet after 10+ years they still have the same issue as a 2 month old product and people have the gall to come and criticize a practically brand new team and product for struggling with what LM has been battling for years... 

That seems to be true. I really wanted to buy Prepar3D v5 as it looked like a more substantial improvement compared to v3 and v4, but I see so many posts of people continuing to stick with 4.5 which has dissuaded me. It really doesn't make sense to defend Prepar3D in this case, which despite building on top of 10 years of development, came out in such a rushed state and with just two post-release hotfixes.

Sure, DirectX 12 is a complex update, but Lockheed Martin have been working on this engine for 10 years and they've had plenty of time to do this. And it's not like it added visual features exclusive to DirectX 12 like ray-tracing and so on.

[L3m0n 56]

42 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Which LoDRadius?   Terrain or Objects?  From my testing of LoDRadius performance dropped to 7 FPS around KLAX and 26GB VRAM usage (per my other screehshots).  They claim the patch didn't change anything with LoDRadius and yet when I set it from 2.000000 to 9.000000 I don't get the same visual results as I did prior to this patch (I can do side by side video if anyone is interested).  Maybe it's all being limited server side, if so, then say so.  Asobo CEO did say he "saw something" but I wasn't entirely sure if it was in reference to this issue of LoDRadius or not - very vague?

The twitch stream didn't really answer anything absolute and no commitments or delivery dates, just lost of "that's a good idea", "we'll fix it", "more to come" (heard it all before) ... and Jorg goes on to say they have almost 200 people working on it followed by "it takes time" (per Jorg interview the project started in 2016) ... and yet 3 patches later the product is worse than it started.  

It felt like the Twitch stream was more an emergency response to what clearly is many users having significant issues with each patch that comes out.

Cheers, Rob.

Please do. Post direct comparison screenshots. State the location, altitude and camera FOV. Save them as high quality PNGs.

[DylanM 1,069]

24 minutes ago, airlinejets said:

I think they did really well in their stream. I'm not sure where you're headed with your comment.

Yup they noted any LOD issues being experienced aren't intentional and these are being looked at as bugs.

[L3m0n 56]

Just now, Rob_Ainscough said:

Screenshot isn't going to be as good a source as video, but I'll do a video (4K) trying to get as close to similar flight as possible ... obviously I can't go "Back" to a prior version so I can only use the source video I recorded prior to the patch and then try to replicate that flight with the patch.

Cheers, Rob.

Video will be more compressed though. At least grab a few direct screenshots from the uncompressed video.

[wthomas33065 994]

37 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

What I see are highly critical FSX/P3D/XP users and/or ex-users that are now being suddenly very tolerant of MSFS significant problems/issues ... why?  You and others had valid criticisms of P3D, XP, FSX, why not for MSFS?

Because some of us grew up and understand how long it takes for software testing and bug replication to take place.  I've worked in software development most of my adult life, (when I wasn't working on Navy Reactors) and I know both as a software tester, test case developer and customer support technician that fixes take time and effort.

It has been six weeks since release with thee patches and a real world update   Perhaps you forget it took over a YEAR for FSX to get it's first update.  FSX got a total of two..  FS9 got only ONE.  

This product is miles ahead of either of those products in terms of both complexity and the need to incorporate realistic client server connections to be able to have real time access to 2 petabytes of scenery data.

I am tolerant of Microsoft because I know the job they have in front of them.  I know what it's like to try and fix bugs on incomplete or bad bug reports.  I know the challenges to trying to replicate behavior that only occurs sporadically or under certain specific configurations.

Most of all I am tolerant because I never in a million years thought we would see a flight simulator product with the fidelity that MSFS has out of the box.  Nor did I expect Microsoft to leverage their investments in their other technologies (azure, Bing, etc) to cater to what is at best a fringe, niche user base.    And as an adult, I don't expect that type of product to be perfect out of the gate, and I don't expect it to be fixed in 6 weeks or less.