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goodperson36

Is This The End of Prepar3D v4.5

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9 hours ago, scotchegg said:

I see a claim and an accusation of malice

Cut throat is NOT malice ... being blind is NOT malice.  Again, it's business, not your definition of malice.

I told you how MS would benefit, you ignored or didn't understand.  If you clear the plate clean of DLC providers by making very early announcements and PR videos, that effectively kills off support for existing platforms because end users are not going to buy and wait for MSFS ... which is exactly what happened.  So DLC providers are now in a position of "no options" because everyone is waiting for MSFS.  So MS has now leveraged themselves into a position where DLC providers have no options because all prior sales on existing platforms have dried up or been reduced significantly, so these DLC providers must now operate on Microsoft's terms if they want to proceed ... hence the "benefit".

I presented you with the opportunity to install the SDK and see for yourself, again you ignored that opportunity.

5 hours ago, honanhal said:

which necessarily involves speculation

I have speculated nothing, I presented a series of realities that can't be "undone" and you keep identifying Asobo and Microsoft as a single entity, they are NOT the same.  I'll repeat:

1.  MS announced MSFS 1 day prior to FSExpo (yes they were aware of FSExpo and the Flight Simulator market and had done their homework)

2.  MS was asked by developers many times to drop WASM as it was going to be a roadblock, MS refused.

3.  MS provided an SDK that is VERY incomplete, again anyone can install it and verify.

4.  With so much missing in the SDK and so many other product issues reported during Tech Alpha, MS decided to release anyway on August 18th, not as Early Access, but as a fully fledge product in which 50% buyers couldn't get installed initially.

5.  PMDG, FSLabs, AS, and other developers have indicated it will be al long wait because of missing features in the SDK.

None of this is speculation and to suggest MS are unware of DLC impact and the existing FS ecosystem is simply ridiculous.  PM's don't get paid to be "unaware", they get paid to deliver a strategy for success however that needs to happen, again it's not about "ethics" and "malice".

It was cut throat and entirely predictable and that's how it played out, no speculation, just facts.

The SDK as of most recent version 0.6.1 ... these TODO, Not Supported, Work In Progress is dotted everywhere in the SDK documentation (this is just a tiny sample):

uc?export=view&id=1coAmpSSyJ64fDKpkuhmW_

uc?export=view&id=1GAgxG68KIR6E-h-V9u7Ze

uc?export=view&id=1Rq_yRu91PMjBT_0vc6qFw

uc?export=view&id=18WVylwaGyZjY4kcl3hmVL

uc?export=view&id=10DR7aeC5hXUIZjggCPEH3

uc?export=view&id=1t2c-akB9tAQ3yWlmwMSuP

And what do end users do, call PMDG lazy.  This are just a few sample from the SDK, there are many many many more.

If MS really cared about existing DLC: 

  • they wouldn't have released early
  • they wouldn't have announced 1 day before FSExpo
  • they wouldn't have gone the WASM route for desktop version
  • they wouldn't have provided a hopelessly incomplete SDK

These are all facts, on Earth, you drop a hammer it hits something below it, you don't need to watch it happen to know it will happen.

Cheers, Rob.

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This reply is why @Rob_Ainscough has more reputation points than posts on this forum.

Most people outside of the developers sphere have no idea what it's like behind the scene. We're all keeping our mouths shut to at least get a chance to work with Asobo in the future and save our companies/careers. Thank you Rob for stepping up.

The only survivors in this will be companies who pilot/innovate, who have the capital to be patient and the ones fortunate enough to have the expertise to work on what this sim currently supports: sceneries, simple aircraft and external economy based systems.

Time will do its things.

We can't say we weren't aware of the scale of such a project and the impact an incomplete SDK would have on our ecosystem when they announced it. That's why most of us thought this sim was impossible and stood still until they actually released the Alpha with what felt like an SDK that was only there to look comforting to potential customers.

We're already seeing an uptick of people going back to P3D. Let's hope this puts food on the table of some of the devs out there!

Edited by Keven Menard
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Keven Menard 
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Its sad if this has impacted 3PDs this badly.

Mathijs over at Aerosoft forums seems to have a different view on the SDK and Asobo's progress:

 

The SDK is not ready, but we (I should say hans Hartmann) are simply asking Asobo every single day how to do things and we are getting answers. Sometimes not the answers we like to get but overall we are incredibly impressed by how responsive and how productive Asobo and Microsoft are handling these things. Every single day issues are sorted out and fixed. We are close to being able to do what we did in P3D. Damned close. 

 

Edited by sanh
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2 minutes ago, sanh said:

Its sad if this has impacted 3PDs this badly.

Mathijs over at Aerosoft forums seems to have a different view on the SDK and Asobo's progress:

 

The SDK is not ready, but we (I should say hans Hartmann) are simply asking Asobo every single day how to do things and we are getting answers. Sometimes not the answers we like to get but overall we are incredibly impressed by how responsive and how productive Asobo and Microsoft are handling these things. Every single day issues are sorted out and fixed. We are close to being able to do what we did in P3D. Damned close. 

 

Either that or he doesn't dare criticise Asobo in public. Given that they haven't released a single aircraft yet, only time will tell how close they are to the standard of their P3D aircraft, which at best were 2nd rate.

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It does seem like Aerosoft has rather privileged access to Asobo.

Many other devs are saying they can't even get them to reply to e-mails. I'm not sure how Aerosoft getting that kind of access is helping anybody else.

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2 hours ago, sanh said:

Its sad if this has impacted 3PDs this badly.

Mathijs over at Aerosoft forums seems to have a different view on the SDK and Asobo's progress:

 

The SDK is not ready, but we (I should say hans Hartmann) are simply asking Asobo every single day how to do things and we are getting answers. Sometimes not the answers we like to get but overall we are incredibly impressed by how responsive and how productive Asobo and Microsoft are handling these things. Every single day issues are sorted out and fixed. We are close to being able to do what we did in P3D. Damned close. 

 

I guess not all developers have the same privilege as Aerosoft.. 😉 which brings another point, why such preferences?  Should not all developers have the same opportunity and playing field? 

My customers don't deserve the same chances to enjoy their products on the new platform as Aerosoft customers? 

The world is upside down clearly 😂

 

 

Edited by simbol
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Now Mathijs has really put his credibility on the line.  


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50 minutes ago, Keven Menard said:

We're already seeing an uptick of people going back to P3D. Let's hope this puts food on the table of some of the devs out there!

As a customer, I have resumed purchases of P3D sceneries. I had a brief encounter with MSFS and liked what I saw in general, but threads such as these one do make it loud and clear that the kind of experience that I'm hoping to get from MSFS is not going to be there anytime soon. I will also add that I was quite disappointed with the age of the data used. I lived in NYC for 6 years and am relatively familiar with the city, and there are numerous prominent buildings missing. I now live in SF and the Salesforce tower, THE icon of SF currently, is no more than an empty pit. Mission Bay, the neighborhood I live in, is the equivalent of what it was perhaps 2 or 3 years ago. I'll be honest: what's there looks nice, but the data is pretty outdated. OrbX's NorCal gives me a much more up-to-date version of SF, even if it doesn't include detailed models for every single building.

That, and that I have been very impressed with P3Dv5. To me, EA almost makes it into a totally new sim. It adds the haze that I've been wanting to see for years now, and it's beautiful and effective!  And so I'm investing again in P3Dv5 compatible sceneries. But I will add that P3Dv5.1 is going to play a pretty significant role in the extent of new purchases I make... EA needs to come out of beta so that it can support full weather control by ASP, and VRAM handling needs to be optimized somehow. For now I'm fine using 1024x1024 textures, but I have noticed a huge limitation on the use of PBR on my system. Really, P3Dv4.4's big innovation (PBR) is nearly impossible to run for me in P3Dv5 because of the VRAM limitation and it doesn't seem like I'll be able to get a new GPU with expanded VRAM anytime soon.

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Benjamin van Soldt

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I am looking forward to see where the P3D v5 journey takes us. I am still mainly using a certain sim that came out in 2006 😉 but bought V4.5 earlier this year and I must admit it is growing on me. At this stage am not interested in MSFS as there are currently no add ons that make it feel like a sim for me personally and i think it will be this way until the SDK is finally finished and developers have got to grips with it ( probably a couple of years away).

I am spending more time than ever in both the 32bit ol sim and the new 64bit one and I for one am happy.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, sanh said:

Mathijs over at Aerosoft forums seems to have a different view on the SDK and Asobo's progress......

That's what happens when you jump into bed with someone. All rational thought goes out of the window :wink:

Edited by Christopher Low
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Christopher Low

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I'm still buying for P3DV5.  And planning on getting FSimstudios Vancouver/Halifax, Orbx PBI, TFDi MD11, FSLabs Sharklets, Pacific Cleveland.  Maybe others. 


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6 minutes ago, micstatic said:

I'm still buying for P3DV5.  And planning on getting FSimstudios Vancouver/Halifax, Orbx PBI, TFDi MD11, FSLabs Sharklets, Pacific Cleveland.  Maybe others. 

Similar position, I'm sure I'll start buying for P3D again once 5.1 fixes the SimConnect window CTD.

5.1 + the extended outlook for study-level sims in MSFS will draw people back in. The thing that sucks is knowing we have to pay +$15 for the same scenery in P3D vs. MSFS.

On another note, it'd be interesting to see how the sales of big, airliner-focused airport sceneries are faring in MSFS this month versus August and September. 

Edited by Chapstick
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Further to Rob's reply regarding Microsoft's "cut throat" methodology, I could argue that they did the same thing to Dovetail Games. I suspect that they were paid a rather large sum of money for the licence to update the Flight Simulator X engine, and yet there is ample evidence that they were preparing their own assault on the civilian flight simulation market behind the scenes at the same time. I am sure that all of Dovetail's cash came in very handy at a time when senior management were probably reluctant to divert any of Microsoft's mainline assets to what had previously been seen to be a lost cause.

Sorry, my cynical subroutines appear to be malfunctioning. Please stand by.....


Christopher Low

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1 hour ago, sanh said:

Mathijs over at Aerosoft forums seems to have a different view on the SDK

That's not much of a view, zero details provided.  But like I said, the SDK is available to all and those key WASM issues:

  • Windows API is not supported
  • C++ exceptions are not supported
  • C++ threads are not supported (yikes!)
  • The GDI+ wrapper is very incomplete (no kidding)

These are all features that most "complex" aircraft will be using as they are Fast, Efficient, and commonly used regardless of FS platform.  Either way, if AS have a "special" version that doesn't have these limitations (which I doubt) then that just re-enforces my "cut throat" statement or the AS aircraft isn't operating at the same level of complexity as PMDG, FSLabs, Leonardo, Majestic, etc. ... I know "some" of the details of how Majestic Q400 was coded and optimized using very specific C++ techniques to a degree of brilliance and is why that aircraft is both complex and yet extremely FPS friendly with a low memory footprint.

Cheers, Rob.

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48 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Further to Rob's reply regarding Microsoft's "cut throat" methodology, I could argue that they did the same thing to Dovetail Games. I suspect that they were paid a rather large sum of money for the licence to update the Flight Simulator X engine, and yet there is ample evidence that they were preparing their own assault on the civilian flight simulation market behind the scenes at the same time. I am sure that all of Dovetail's cash came in very handy at a time when senior management were probably reluctant to divert any of Microsoft's mainline assets to what had previously been seen to be a lost cause.

Sorry, my cynical subroutines appear to be malfunctioning. Please stand by.....

Dovetail failed with FSW and pulled the plug on April 2018.

"The decision to discontinue Flight Sim World does not come as a light one to the Dovetail team, they said in a statement. The decision comes down to the commercial success of the product so far, making it not viable to continue with development."

One year later in 2019 the licensing agreement with Microsoft was terminated. 

To me it looks like DTG tried to run with their FSX lovechild "Flightsim world" but when that ended up in a financial fiasco the value of said license agreement must've also taken a suibstantial turn for the worse...thus you cut off the cancer I assume?

My speculation only

(btw does anyone remember Dovetail Flight School? 🥰)


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