DX12 - 18th November!

[Phantoms 800]

32 minutes ago, March Hare said:

The outright dismissal of it I'm not sure of their reasoning, but if they did decide to include it on PC as an option, they could do so and leave it out of the Xbox build. Xbox and PC versions aren't dependent on each other.

I'd hesitate to make that claim.  My guess is they are probably very dependent on each other and share a good bit of code between them.

[March Hare 720]

10 minutes ago, Phantoms said:

I'd hesitate to make that claim.  My guess is they are probably very dependent on each other and share a good bit of code between them.

They will definitely share code, but they really aren't dependent on each other. Separate builds. They can do what they want with each version, which is different from what they choose to do and how they approach developing both versions, and to what extent they choose to do the same on each to make their lives easier/save development time. Realistically, there's no reason they can't implement one type of AA on PC that they leave out of the Xbox build.

EDIT: I'm not making baseless claims when I talk about different builds. I'm imparting knowledge from a senior developer with extensive knowledge and experience working on and porting across all major platforms, including from PC to Xbox Series S/X. It's how these things work. But what Asobo choose to do across the two builds, and how much they want to keep them the same, is a different matter. Point is, there's no technical reason not to implement a different antialiasing option that's only on PC, but they might choose not to to make their lives easier.

Edited October 31, 2021 by March Hare

[DylanM 1,069]

23 hours ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

To me it is perfectly clear now that they are intentionally being dismissive of the technology. In the last Q&A, he said "TAAU is going to provide the correct data, DLSS is not".

Here's an objective video comparing TAA to DLSS. DLSS does introduce more shimmering, affects lighting and coloration, text legibility, and texture resolution on distant surfaces. 

RTX DLSS vs. TAA Analysis: RTX Finally in Use - YouTube

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

1 hour ago, DylanM said:

Here's an objective video comparing TAA to DLSS. DLSS does introduce more shimmering, affects lighting and coloration, text legibility, and texture resolution on distant surfaces. 

The video is from 2018, so that's DLSS 1.0 being compared. It has literally nothing to do with DLSS 2.0, which was introduced earlier last year.

DLSS 1.0 was an AI spatial upscaling method, and it was generally terrible, even AMD's simple upscaling and sharpening solution worked better at the time. But DLSS 2.x is based on generalised temporal upsampling, same principle as TAAU, with AI replacing the heuristics model. It can achieve very similar and sometimes better quality than native rendering, with newer revisions (newest is 2.3) and experimental models (which I linked to earlier) nearly eliminating ghosting artifacts.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Asobo are still thinking of DLSS 1.0 at this stage considering some of those awful excuses.

[DylanM 1,069]

20 minutes ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

The video is from 2018, so that's DLSS 1.0 being compared. It has literally nothing to do with DLSS 2.0, which was introduced earlier last year.

DLSS 1.0 was an AI spatial upscaling method, and it was generally terrible, even AMD's simple upscaling and sharpening solution worked better at the time. But DLSS 2.x is based on generalised temporal upsampling, same principle as TAAU, with AI replacing the heuristics model. It can achieve very similar and sometimes better quality than native rendering, with newer revisions (newest is 2.3) and experimental models (which I linked to earlier) nearly eliminating ghosting artifacts.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Asobo are still thinking of DLSS 1.0 at this stage considering some of those awful excuses.

As smart as it is, you're still going to get results like this with people trying to run low resolution and complaining about "readability"

NVIDIA DLSS 2.0 at 128x72 resolution in Remedy's Control - YouTube

But if / when DLSS is implemented, DLSS swapper will come in handy

DLSS Swapper makes your games look better! - YouTube

Edited November 1, 2021 by DylanM

[bobcat999 8,477]

Yes.  DLSS 1 was generally regarded as not very good.  DLSS 2+ is a world away, and is highly regarded and appreciated, by gamers in the main of course.

[TurboKen 221]

On 10/30/2021 at 5:39 PM, JimBrown said:

I fly RC jets. I've always said, if you're going to crash, be sure to make it spectacular. 😉

...jim

 

I have yet to ever crash my plane and not be spectacular...

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

4 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Yes.  DLSS 1 was generally regarded as not very good.  DLSS 2+ is a world away, and is highly regarded and appreciated, by gamers in the main of course.

DLSS 1 did improved as games optimised for it so the results towards the end were much better than the initial YouTube reviews would indicate, however DLSS 2 is much much better even straight out of the box.

[MrFuzzy 2,118]

10 hours ago, DylanM said:

As smart as it is, you're still going to get results like this with people trying to run low resolution and complaining about "readability"

NVIDIA DLSS 2.0 at 128x72 resolution in Remedy's Control - YouTube

 

128x72? Seriously? Why would anyone take this into consideration?

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

38 minutes ago, MrFuzzy said:

128x72? Seriously? Why would anyone take this into consideration?

The fact that it works at all is pretty impressive.

[NZ255 309]

On 11/1/2021 at 12:35 AM, bobcat999 said:

Sorry, but to me, this is BS 

Note:  My view is aimed at Seb's comments, not you.

Yeah fair enough. 

I’ll continue to play devils advocate and this isn’t directed personally at you either. 

I don’t have a deep technical understanding on how DLSS works. It seems to use a neutral rework that compares images from the game in high res and then trains the model to use that data to upscale when it seems something similar at a lower resuloution. Perhaps because the terrain uses aerial images, so is totally unique, it doesn’t work as good as a traditional game when there’s a finite number of textures. 

I also don’t think it’ll be simple to try DLSS else they would have already. Probably quite a lot of work to work it into the render pipeline, perhaps refactor code, then train the model (multiple times to see if you could get better results with different parameters, for example).

I’d trust a career developer with a deep understanding of how the game works if this technique would have some merit. I wouldn’t write off his decision as a new tech phobia. 

[JSmith2112 317]

The main purpose of DLSS is to increase FPS. I have several games on my system that support it (and a supported video card) - the FPS increase is huge when DLSS is on. DLSS also supports various quality presets so you can trade image quality vs performance if you wish.

[Edit]: I should of added that DLSS is intended to restore performance when ray tracing is being used as ray tracing introduces a performance penalty. Do we know if ray tracing will be used in flight sim yet? I suspect not and this may be why Asobo haven't expressed much interest in DLSS. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by JSmith2112

[MrFuzzy 2,118]

20 minutes ago, JSmith2112 said:

The main purpose of DLSS is to increase FPS. I have several games on my system that support it (and a supported video card) - the FPS increase is huge when DLSS is on. DLSS also supports various quality presets so you can trade image quality vs performance if you wish.

[Edit]: I should of added that DLSS is intended to restore performance when ray tracing is being used as ray tracing introduces a performance penalty. Do we know if ray tracing will be used in flight sim yet? I suspect not and this may be why Asobo haven't expressed much interest in DLSS. 

In an early interview they said that ray tracing will be "looked at" after DX12 implementation.

“Right now we are doing DirectX11, at some point we will switch to DirectX12, and at this point we can start looking into this Ray Tracing thing”

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by MrFuzzy

[MrFuzzy 2,118]

38 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

The fact that it works at all is pretty impressive.

No, I mean... why take into consideration such extremes and mentioning "instrument readability"?

Obviously any technique becomes harmful if you make bad use of it. If you use DLSS to decrease the internal resolution to ridiculous values it will look like sh*t but that doesn't prove that DLSS is not worth implementing. I played Cyberpunk 2077 with "crazy preset" including ray tracing with DLSS on Quality and it looked incredibly good and smooth at 70-80 fps g-synced. Without DLSS it was a choppy 40-45 fps with minuscule differences in graphics quality.

If you use 1000+ light sources ray tracing will make the sim run at 1 fps but that doesn't mean that ray tracing should not be taken into consideration. I mean, just look at how unrealistic screen space reflections are, they just disappear when the source is out of the FOV or behind an aircraft part. That alone makes ray tracing a MUST for a flight simulator.

Real time ray tracing is the future, DLSS is a big help in this transition period in which many GPUs are not powerful enough to cope with it but it is the future nevertheless.

Only lazy developers would stick to DX11 (or DX12 wrapper without DX12 features) and screen space reflections. Let's hope Asobo does not belong to this category of developers. Even more so because they promised a 10-year project.

[DylanM 1,069]

8 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

Only lazy developers would stick to DX11

I think that's where many are getting their backs up - given the pace of work, I'm pretty sure the Asobo devs have been anything but lazy. They were also pretty clear they would look at things like DLSS as part of the overall release schedule (i.e. after XBox and DX12); just look at what happened to SU5 when they tried to combine multiple builds - it did have performance improvements but with a lot of collateral.

The new version of DLSS is significantly more straightforward to implement, but they also need to consider FSR for AMD (especially as the XBox runs that hardware). However given the issues with managing multiple streams of work, I'd rather them do one thing at a time - i.e if they're working on doing a strong build of DX12 to maximize performance and features with the API, work on that first as there's huge untapped potential there. Then layer on DLSS.  

Edit: If you haven't already, also vote this topic up on the official forums to perhaps bump up the priority:

Nvidia DLSS support - Self-Service / Wishlist - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

Edited November 2, 2021 by DylanM