On 12/19/2022 at 3:55 AM, ark4diusz said:

Why PMDG much struggle in that area?

Because MSFS is in a fast pace of development and change, is my guess.  It is not a stable platform so devs have to roll with the changes and that disrupts meeting time deadlines.

37 minutes ago, Noel said:

Because MSFS is in a fast pace of development and change, is my guess.  It is not a stable platform so devs have to roll with the changes and that disrupts meeting time deadlines.

That, and also due to the various WASM framework hurdles/shortcomings (which all have-been/will-be-soon addressed by Asobo).. PMDG were forced to use WASM due to their decision to continue using their C++ code base *and* sell on the marketplace to cater to both PC and XBox systems. Not the "native" way to develop for MSFS, but also very understandable they want to re-use their existing code base as much as posible... they could've made it easier for themselves to target only PC, but then again also understandable why they'd want to be on the marketplace (which requires products support both PC and XBox). From all what I understand, if just targeting PC, they can build their C++ codebase to Windows executables/DLLs without needing to use WASM.
 

Edited December 20, 20223 yr by lwt1971

19 minutes ago, Jazz said:

ave any of those things been enough to objectively say that they have not consistently made the best product on the market though?

Because objectively, these are areas where they fall behind at least one other airliner dev and definitely behind a bizjet dev too.

You can like simultaneously like the PMDG 737 in MSFS and call out its shortcomings.
Neither the Fenix A320 nor the FFX HJet are perfect either. Yet, in my eyes, they're superior in texturing, sounds, ease of user interface, and are supported by developers who don't blame the customer or Asobo for failings of their own product.

Just last night, I took the 737-600 out for a rare spin. Turning down the brightness on the PFD, ND and EICAS screens for a night flight. Rotating the dial happened painfully slowly, though before I even reached halfway, promptly turned that screen off. Turning it back on put it back instantly to full brightness. This occurred on 3 of the 7 screens I was interacting with and is a problem from the P3D days.
Then there's the issue of the engines randomly spooling up on descent and approach.
Two small instances of where the so-called best product on the market, isn't.

As someone who absolutely loved both the PMDG 737 and 747 in FS9, and has a 737 as my avatar, it pains me to see PMDG so stuck in their ways and in their offerings.

47 minutes ago, Jazz said:

I suppose I was thinking more of the kind of flack firing I have witnessed over the years which does no such thing and comes over as personal axe-grinding and a bit bitter somehow.

And those elements on the list are not missing and are working on the Fenix A320, an addon from a new company that started and finished development roughly the same time as the PMDG 737.

Now as for the feeling of "dislike" you can see here on Avsim, it's almost on all the flight sim community platform. For me it's because of RSR on it's own forum. Jumping on user for pointing out something that is not working that well, lashing out at freeware dev because he did not agree with what they say, and continuously bashing on Asobo during the 737 making, so much so, that it became a running joke. I could also add, promising stuff that are very lately delivered or just put under the rug and overplaying the buzz card.

 The 737 is a great plane, ported over from P3D, but I have zero of the wow effect I had with the Fenix. As of the company, I really don't hold it close to heart and I really wish the high quality Boeing addon monopoly will end soon.

 

1 hour ago, bendead said:

...... those elements on the list are not missing and are working on the Fenix A320, an addon from a new company that started and finished development roughly the same time as the PMDG 737.......

 

The Fenix A320 is not in the market place and will never go to Xbox, because they are running most of the systems outside of the sim. Their choice, their market to do with what they want, but they have chosen an easier (I didn't say easy) route than PMDG which has through its own choices been bound by encumbrances necessary for it to reach a wider MSFS market. As a PC user I selfishly don't care about the Xbox market, but it is apples and oranges comparing Fenix and PMDG when they employ entirely different approaches to software development while catering for different markets. You are right, Fenix have enjoyed more success in terms of outcomes, but for the X-box user perspective they are complete failure since they never showed up.   

 

Cheers

Terry

 

Edited December 20, 20223 yr by Lord Farringdon

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Because objectively, these are areas where they fall behind at least one other airliner dev and definitely behind a bizjet dev too.

You can like simultaneously like the PMDG 737 in MSFS and call out its shortcomings.
Neither the Fenix A320 nor the FFX HJet are perfect either. Yet, in my eyes, they're superior in texturing, sounds, ease of user interface, and are supported by developers who don't blame the customer or Asobo for failings of their own product.

Just last night, I took the 737-600 out for a rare spin. Turning down the brightness on the PFD, ND and EICAS screens for a night flight. Rotating the dial happened painfully slowly, though before I even reached halfway, promptly turned that screen off. Turning it back on put it back instantly to full brightness. This occurred on 3 of the 7 screens I was interacting with and is a problem from the P3D days.
Then there's the issue of the engines randomly spooling up on descent and approach.
Two small instances of where the so-called best product on the market, isn't.

As someone who absolutely loved both the PMDG 737 and 747 in FS9, and has a 737 as my avatar, it pains me to see PMDG so stuck in their ways and in their offerings.

I have no problems turning down the brightness on any 737 screen, it goes off right before the end of the knob and smoothly goes back on appropriately to me turning the knob. Are you sure it's not a panel state issue?
Also to rapidly speed up knob turning just hold SHIFT while using the mouse wheel.
As for the engine spool up on approach, this was a bug introduced by a recent update and fixed by a more recent update, do you have that latest update?

I almost daily fly the 737 in MSFS and operate it like the real aircraft and it works almost flawlessly in every aspect (ACARS stuff and some rare RF legs aside...).

Edited December 20, 20223 yr by Fiorentoni

3 hours ago, F737MAX said:

You can like simultaneously like the PMDG 737 in MSFS and call out its shortcomings.

Certainly. I don't believe I was suggesting otherwise. Wasn't my intention anyway. It was just my perspective of things based on my experience. The truth is I'm the first to grumble when something isn't right. The more I like something the more I tend to grumble to the developer. Well, point out the problems and offer feedback anyway. Some may call it grumbling and they may be right. The last purchase I made with PMDG was the 747-8 in P3D and it had a couple of issues that troubled me. Issues that over the years I have come to not expect from them. What troubled me more were my communications with them about those issues. Again, I had come to expect better from them over the years. But the thing was, despite that, the only products that came close to the standard of that thing were other PMDG products and the FSL Airbus. And that is really the point I was making.

For me, the proof of the pudding will be when I buy the 737 in the next few weeks. What will my experience with it be? And when I get around to buying the Fenix how will that compare to it.

I'm an addon snob. I will confess to it. Not in the way that I like to look down on users that enjoy a simpler cheaper experience. Nothing of the sort. I'm just a nerd that enjoys depth and accuracy and if it doesn't work as it should it tends to not interest me at all. It's what I do this for and always has been. I say that because it underlines the point that I suppose that I have been trying to make. If they had not still been the best I would have moved to those that were. Until now they always have been.

I'm about to find out if they still are.

One thing is for sure though. Competition is good for everyone. It can only raise the standards of all so I'm all for it.

Edited December 20, 20223 yr by Jazz

14 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

I have no problems turning down the brightness on any 737 screen, it goes off right before the end of the knob and smoothly goes back on appropriately to me turning the knob. Are you sure it's not a panel state issue?
Also to rapidly speed up knob turning just hold SHIFT while using the mouse wheel.
As for the engine spool up on approach, this was a bug introduced by a recent update and fixed by a more recent update, do you have that latest update?

Not related to panel state, as I've had this issue after different panel state starts.
Noted, thanks.
I have the latest available version installed.
 

3 minutes ago, Jazz said:

[...] the proof of the pudding will be when I buy the 737 in the next few weeks. What will my experience with it be? [...]
One thing is for sure though. Competition is good for everyone. It can only raise the standards of all so I'm all for it.

I sincerely hope you enjoy it.
Concur wholeheartedly.

Hmm, a mature and interesting debate, we don’t get many of those round here usually, well done, carry on 👍

1 hour ago, Lord Farringdon said:

 

The Fenix A320 is not in the market place and will never go to Xbox, because they are running most of the systems outside of the sim. Their choice, their market to do with what they want, but they have chosen an easier (I didn't say easy) route than PMDG which has through its own choices been bound by encumbrances necessary for it to reach a wider MSFS market. As a PC user I selfishly don't care about the Xbox market, but it is apples and oranges comparing Fenix and PMDG when they employ entirely different approaches to software development while catering for different markets. You are right, Fenix have enjoyed more success in terms of outcomes, but for the X-box user perspective they are complete failure since they never showed up.   

 

Cheers

Terry

 

LNAV re-write (finally arrived this summer after years of 'coming soon'™ on other platforms and MSFS)

EFB ('coming soon'™)

RF legs

jerky animations

low quality texturing in a number of places

some weak sounds in their soundpack

not using the MSFS sound engine capability

lack of interactivity with winter effects

personally have problems with 737-600 where engines will randomly spool up during descent and approach

unrealistic launch dates every single time.

 

OK, but other addon developers showed us that the items above are working on Xbox. About "quality items" like sounds, texture, modeling, interface" Fenix showed us they worked a lot more on details than PMDG and that's orange to orange.

Also, when you are saying Fenix programmed their A320 their way because it was "an easier (I didn't say easy) route", well I could say the same about PMDG, who programmed their 737, their way, because they didn't need to rewrite their addon and they knew the code quite well.

 

Wasn't the 900 supposed to be out in November and feature the new PMDG EFB?   I had completely forgot about the 900.  Maybe they know only a few hardcore folks want it.   I have the 700 and 800 so no more 737s for me.

I will be interested to see the price for the 900. I do not expect it to be the same as the 700 or 800. Am I right in thinking that there will only be two variants (the standard 900, and the ER)?

Edited December 21, 20223 yr by Christopher Low

2 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I will be interested to see the price for the 900. I do not expect it to be the same as the 700 or 800. Am I right in thinking that there will only be two variants (the standard 900, and the ER)?

Most probably, since those are the only variants that exist 🙂

On 12/21/2022 at 12:38 AM, F737MAX said:

They get deserved flack for long promising and not delivering on:

• LNAV re-write (finally arrived this summer after years of 'coming soon'™ on other platforms and MSFS)
• EFB ('coming soon'™)
• RF legs

I think the most egregious was the selling of the Prepar3D 777-200ER (pre-release update, release post) at the 77.72 price with the promise of the Virtual Cockpit. Which got delayed till post MSFS 777 launch (update) which probably means never. And what about GFO?

I took the time to find all these links to make sure that I was remembering things right and it's been so long it's easy to forget. I understand the importance as a business to prioritize the release of MSFS 737 but the many failed promises is a bit disconcerting.

I hope someone else makes a good Boeing 747 for MSFS before they do...

On 12/21/2022 at 2:20 AM, Jazz said:

For example...the LNAV thing....from my perspective. Yes, it took a while but what was the problem with it? Obviously there were issues or they would not have taken the time to fix it but I don't know what they were (or I can't remember) If I ever had a problem with a PMDG LNAV it was so long ago that I don't remember it. I vaguely recall some iffy path drawing on occasion back whenever but that is as close to an LNAV issue that I can recall. Apart from that any LNAV in any of their planes that I have used has behaved as I would have expected.

It doesn't always follow magenta line very well, experienced it myself yesterday on the NGXu flying into Vegas. Searching for PMDG LNAV update gets tons of related posts. I went back to the archives to find this from March 2021:

Quote

Updating LNAV, Flight Director and NAVDATA:
====================================
Now that the 777 is finally out of the hangar, we are preparing to roll a test-case airplane out to our beta teams so that they can begin working with our LNAV 2.0 process. This long-awaited update will replace the LNAV module currently in the 737, 747 and 777 product lines with a new, refined version based upon years of research, industry input, client feedback and improved modeling techniques. Coupled with an updated flight director, we will give providing you with an industry leading lateral navigation process that will bring this aspect of our simulations up to the level of refinement we have been seeking for all of our products. In conjunction with this change, or immediately following this change, we will also change the navdata process in our 737, 747 and 777 product lines to use a database driven system provided by Navigraph, rather than the outdated, customized structure we have relied upon for 20 years. This will allow us to implement a number of modern navigation practices that our products don't currently support gracefully. We'll have more show-and-tell on this as it gets into testing with our beta teams.

Edited December 24, 20223 yr by level7