1 hour ago, qqwertzde said:

I would invest in a 1-month subscription for Navigraph Ultra and see what you miss.

As for you, Noel, maybe charts will give you the edge to get above 99 🙂

That's a good suggestion for me it's probably not much $$ for a trial.  Unfortunately charts will offer me nothing (as you probably knew!) to get me over 99 in fact w/ the attention spent trying to follow charts and maps my score will likely go down 🙃

I'm consistent anyway my wife insists on looking at paper maps (you know that old fashioned navigation method for road travel) while I stick w/ GPS navigation 😉

Edited February 27, 20233 yr by Noel

5 hours ago, Jazz said:

I can't imagine flying without them. I can't imagine how anyone does.

when everybody demands evermore "study level", how can you not study charts before takeoff and landing, and enroute? same goes for weather briefing. unless you just wanna have fu-un. but that's not why we are here or are we?

1 hour ago, qqwertzde said:

When I fly with a VR headset, I would consider Navigraph Ultra as almost indispensable.

I would be interested, but how do you do that? only TDS or PMS50? crisp and clear under the VR headset?

If you are to be really true as possible to RL, charts are invaluable and a must especially with low visibility in terms of what you can or can not do at airports especially for landing and missed approaches. I watched this video today (and enjoyed it) and it kinda touches on some of the points discussed in this thread and RVR's. 

 

 

"Prior to every flight, pilots should gather all information vital to the nature of the flight"

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_1.html

I don't see how you could avoid them.  I use to buy them on paper or download them and have a copy on a laptop.

Ignore my program, as it is expensive, but Navigraph Charts is a perfectly good utility as well.  I just have gotten so used to ForeFlight and it's abilities, I only use Navigraph for non-US flights.

So in terms of having the plates, let's look at a simple flight from Prescott, AZ to Phoenix, AZ (KDVT).  Let's say it's at night and the weather is lower visibility (i.e., low hanging clouds, 3 mile viz).

You depart with a route of KPRC KARLO AZNUP KDVT.  You expect runways 7 to be in use as well.  So the route looks like this:

You plan on 7R, and as you see, AZNUP is already an IAF (initial approach fix) on the plate!  Great!

You can continue to AZNUP and perhaps cut to CEGAP, with ATC's blessing 😉

But there's a problem.  The winds have picked up and the active runways are now 25.  You still need guidance, and even with ATC, if you're given waypoints to head to, you need to know where you're heading.  You are given RNAV 25L, but you aren't sure how to navigate that, and unless ATC actually gives you a waypoint that makes sense, you are expected to understand your route and restrictions.  So you pull 25L up and see your routing:

You are about 5 NM from AZNUP and Phoenix ATC tell you to head direct to BANYO.  That makes sense and you don't really need a chart for that, especially when ATC would likely give you an altitude.  However, they most often expect you to fly the RNAV or ILS plate from a specific point on your own.  They aren't going to hold your hand, so ATC is not literally guiding you around. So, you know you can be at 6,300 feet at BANYO, and continue to descend to CIPLU for 5,600 then onward according to the plate.  Of course, as you mentioned, on-board GPS without visual charting, such as an FMC will have waypoints, altitude restrictions and so forth.  But you are still in the dark.  When you select a runway to land in an FMC/CDU, a list of transitions shows up.  What if one of those is 20 miles opposite side of the airport?  You don't know without a chart. 😀   If you are using an FMC and selected 25L here, without a visual reference, you could easily select PXR and go all the way down to Phoenix Sky Harbor for no reason.

Apparently no one is reading the airport briefing under 10-1.....

It'll tell you all kinds of important information like which runway to use, what SID/STAR is expected in given time period, should you use NADP1 or NADP2, what direction of pushback you should heading, what taxi route to use if you have oversize wingspan, how long before dep should you call of clearance, what kinds of bird or strange wind effect to be expect near the airport etc etc......

This all comes down to what I call sim-style. My impression is the OPs style is mainly to let the software and FMS/AP do it, and that's perfectly fine! Everyone has the right to use and enjoy the sim as best fits them. If all someone wanted to do was taxi around large airports like KJFK and KORD in a C152 or A320 and never leave the ground -- fine, so be it! They bought the sim, so that's their prerogative. Enjoy!

Now, if a pilot wanted to develop flight planning skills, or wanted to know why the AP is doing what it is doing, or what the AP will do next, or be prepared to handle the unexpected, etc, then I would think charts would be helpful. But that is a different sim-style. Modern airliners have amazing automation these days, yet RW pilots spend a lot of time looking at charts and briefing before they leave the ground, and for good reason. If a simmer wants to emulate that to some degree, to understand what real pilots do, what kind of decisions they have to make, on what they base those decisions and why, if that is their sim-style, then charts would seem to have a role in that.

I fail to see what the big decision is here. As a number of posters have pointed out, charts for the US are free and readily available. So as far as I can see, there is no risk if one wants to experiment a bit with a more chart oriented sim-style.

Maybe just start with taxi charts for KJFK and KORD! 😉

To each their own.

Al

 

 

Edited February 27, 20233 yr by ark

1 hour ago, turbomax said:

I would be interested, but how do you do that? only TDS or PMS50? crisp and clear under the VR headset?

I often fly VFR with visual navigation and no GPS. Navigraph now has an in-game panel that you can use to display VFR charts and air spaces. However, I also used Navigraph charts displayed in the PMS50. It works reasonably well, but the size of the screen is much smaller than for the Navigraph in-game panel. 

1 hour ago, Orlaam said:

I don't see how you could avoid them.  I use to buy them on paper or download them and have a copy on a laptop.

Sure, in that plausible real world scenario, or a live ATC scenario like vatsim might provide, it makes absolute sense.  But that's not the world I'm in.  Mine is scripted from start to finish because I know which runway default ATC will send me to for arrival and departure for that matter.  On rare occasion the runway turns out not to be the one it *should* have been in which case I will bring up LNM to view the arrival and approach options relative to the new runway assignment and choose what makes sense.  Throw in terrain radar and all of a sudden deviating attention to a chart doesn't really add value....UNLESS something changes, and as I say, it's pretty well scripted.  There's ample monitoring to do as you know, even w/o charts to view, when you're looking at avionic surrogates as it were.  Not the same, but full of useful information.  While you may be diligently crosschecking your constraints etc I'll be reading about Dunedin, Otago NZ, it's history, current demographics, industry and so forth.  And may even have traditional Maori music playing in the background as I did this morning's incredible flight into Queenstown.  I enjoy the GSX loading rituals and all the rest, and of course flying for score in APL means I'm paying attention to their set of criteria which is good enough for my needs.  So we use the sim for different reasons and in different ways and I guarantee you I'm enjoying this every bit as much as anyone.  Just was looking to see how charts would add value for how I use the sim.

5 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

The original version is pretty old now, they have been on version 2 for as long as I can remember. They stopped supporting the original version 5 years ago. I fly all over the world, which is one of the greatest features of  MSFS 2020. I always have all the charts, plus Sids, and Stars ,  no matter where I fly. 

Bob, I can understand your fabel for Avliasoft ... but you have to generate a database for Avliasoft and this database is based on the navdata in the sim. Theroetically, with each update from Navigraph you should update your database in Avliasoft too.

I'm using charts a lot and they are part of my preparation for each flight. Thanksfully Navigraph integrated VFR Charts recently. Before it was a bit of a pain to fly VFR in dense airspaces and to and from controlled airports due to missing maps/charts. Now I'm prepared if the controller advices me to enter CTR via Whiskey e.g. For sure I can plan a straight line from/to and ignore all around me but it is not the kind of flying I do like, online or not. And because I normally do not fly in the US, Navigraph is a must for me.

Best regards Detlef  

3 minutes ago, Noel said:

Sure, in that plausible real world scenario, or a live ATC scenario like vatsim might provide, it makes absolute sense.  But that's not the world I'm in.  Mine is scripted from start to finish because I know which runway default ATC will send me to for arrival and departure for that matter.  On rare occasion the runway turns out not to be the one it *should* have been in which case I will bring up LNM to view the arrival and approach options relative to the new runway assignment and choose what makes sense.  Throw in terrain radar and all of a sudden deviating attention to a chart doesn't really add value....UNLESS something changes, and as I say, it's pretty well scripted.  There's ample monitoring to do as you know, even w/o charts to view, when you're looking at avionic surrogates as it were.  Not the same, but full of useful information.  While you may be diligently crosschecking your constraints etc I'll be reading about Dunedin, Otago NZ, it's history, current demographics, industry and so forth.  And may even have traditional Maori music playing in the background as I did this morning's incredible flight into Queenstown.  I enjoy the GSX loading rituals and all the rest, and of course flying for score in APL means I'm paying attention to their set of criteria which is good enough for my needs.  So we use the sim for different reasons and in different ways and I guarantee you I'm enjoying this every bit as much as anyone.  Just was looking to see how charts would add value for how I use the sim.

It's all matter of what you want to accomplish.  As another poster mentioned, some just like to do scripted missions, poke around in visual conditions (ignoring airspace regs), flying over restricted airspace, or whatever you like.  I don't fly online, although I should given my desires and time spent.  Nevertheless, I don't adhere to all real world rules, as that would often be a hassle and I don't know all the regs.  If I'm heading to an airport with MVFR and it becomes LIFR, I'm not spending more time to hold or head to an alternate.  I would just prefer to wing it with the ILS, lol.  Sometimes taking that inappropriate GA into a really low visibility airfield is fun and challenging.

Yet, when it comes to a normal flight for me, I like to plan a real world current route, having the correct fuel, W&B, and so forth.  I adhere to the charts and minimums.  I like the idea of proper navigation and knowing where I am or going.  I don't just rely on TAWS.  There was a time I just allowed ATC to set me to a heading for ILS capture and followed those directions.  No charts.  But in the sim it's often a route into a mountain, a few hundred feet above the ground, or something silly.

You can rest assured that once I'm in cruise, I'm often watching a YouTube video or not paying close attention though.  But I only do short flights, preferably one to two hours.

The only value they add is what has been stated here.  Realism, overlay for your routing, minimums, go-around info, headings/frequencies, et cetera.

40 minutes ago, stratone said:

Bob, I can understand your fabel for Avliasoft ... but you have to generate a database for Avliasoft and this database is based on the navdata in the sim. Theroetically, with each update from Navigraph you should update your database in Avliasoft too.

 

That is exactly what I do. When I update the Navdata database for the sim, I then update the same database to Avliasoft. 

For me it all came together when the in-game ATC guided me into a mountain in the Philippines.

I realized that the ATC was stupid and that I needed a smarter ATC; I got P2ATC. Brilliant piece of software!

Then I realized that the traffic was too bland and nonsensical liveries kept appearing around the world. So, I decided to go the AIG route. Then I realized that the traffic was as dumb (dumber) than the ATC, so I pivoted to PSXT/RT in order to see planes fly correct patterns and procedures.

The charts piece was something I'd always used for a rough reference and double check, but it was one flight in the Pacific, where I'd planned a 4 hour flight, and mid-way through decided that I really didn't want to finish it. I pulled up the charts of the nearest airports got winds and weather and then decided on the appropriate destination and procedure all while also telling P2ATC of my diversion and requesting a change to my selected airport. It then assigned me a different approach than I had mentally selected, but I pulled up the chart and flew it. It was a great experience (everything coming together) even though I hadn't pre-planned everything to the nth degree.

The most recent version of Navigraph is great. I'm really liking the new interface, the airport details and the terrain view. I'm still trying to find a solution which will show me the vertical profile of the flight path from a position to a destination so that I can ensure that a VS selection on a descent will be sufficient while not plowing me into a mountain.

There are still some of us who like to fly IFR with steam gauges, so charts are pretty useful for those airports with procedures hiding below the cloud layer.  I normally just drag them off the net as many countries' airnav authorities have them freely available.  They're also useful for use with glass outside North America, for those of us not subscribing.