3 minutes ago, Dave_YVR said:

 For me, the livery is of huge importance as I like to see the outside of the aircraft while on the ground and in flight. What I really can't give two *#2ts about is modeling of the actual cabin past the flightdeck door. 

I like to have the passenger cabin, what I don't care about is having airports interiors.

I would guess the OP does not do much plane-spotting! 

Personally, I'm one of those who enjoys the scenery. Buildings (especially accurate representations) roads, trees, airports and yes, the planes themselves, in all of their varying colors and designs, are part of the attraction of the sim.

I suspect the vast majority of us probably fairly regularly (I could be quite wrong, especially considering the venue) stop to "smell the coffee" by going to external view occasionally to savor the sights and hear the sounds: inhaling the ambience of aviation that draws (and drew) us in the first place to our enjoyment of flight....

And draws millions of others to air shows and museums annually.

The OP's preference thus has no attraction for me, and I think would probably reduce this whole hobby to a shrinking cadre of true believers in a fairly short time.

I'm not worried though. The likelihood of this suggestion being adopted, or even being taken very seriously, I estimate to be low enough to walk comfortably beneath a pregnant ant....

Although I have sat in more cockpits and flightdecks than I can remember, I have never been a pilot, and never will be sadly. 

I just love aviation, instilled in me by my father spending 12 years in the Royal Air Force.

So I hope there isn't a perception that flight sims are just for pilots or aspiring pilots, as most people who own MSFS (based on the 3 million figure the Microsoft give) are not pilots, but probably just aviation lovers like me.

My love of aviation obviously comes from being present with RAF aircraft, but also being an avid plane spotter in my early years, and then being involved in aircraft professionally for the biggest part of my working career.

My adoration comes from experiences such as standing out at Gatwick for eight hours in freezing rain, watching every arrival and departure, or pressing my face up against wire fences late at night at places like Orly, listening to the Air France mail flights start up (Transall's, F27's etc), and relishing the smell of the jet fuel and the sound of the turboprops spooling-up - reverberating in my head well after I had gone to bed.  

This is what I love about aviation, and I try to recreate it and re-live those absolutely enchanting past times in Microsoft Flight Sim. 
I love looking at the liveries on a well made 3D representation of a plane, even better when created by people on Avsim such as Steve and Ryan etc. 

Sometimes I load up the sim just to look at them; if there is time for a flight as well then even better, but to me it is an engineering art-form that I really appreciate, and it brings me enjoyment that is just as valid as for people who want to pretend to be pilots. 

So yes, good cockpits are one thing, but without the sounds and external liveries amongst believable surroundings, this sim would be lost on me.

And before anybody tries to belittle us not-so-serious 'plane spotter' types, this sim would probably be dead or at least wouldn't prosper so well without the significant amount of sales from that demographic.

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by bobcat999

I think it is important to stress that, whatever some members of the flight simulation community seem to think, we are actually playing a game (and yes, I include P3D in that definition, as the vast majority of home users of P3D are/were not using it as a training device). That being the case, we want more than just a rendered cockpit. Whilst I do not generally jump outside of the plane during my short flights, I make an exception when I want to take a screenshot, or create a short video to demonstrate the simulator to friends. This is also why a lot of flight simmers want to see rendered internal environments in terminals and other airport buildings. It makes everything seem more realistic, and it adds to the immersion in the game.

EDIT: Let's see how many react to the word GAME

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by Christopher Low

17 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

EDIT: Let's see how many react to the word GAME

There should be no reaction to that now unless it is from an annoying pedant.  That argument is done! 

Game.. simulator.. software title... It doesn't matter.  It is what it is, and we all know what it does. 

Sometimes labels are fairly useless; it is the function that is important.  

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by bobcat999

3 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Sometimes I load up the sim just to look at them;

I bet an awful lot of us do that, particularly with PMDG's DC-6, which is still the most beautiful thing created for MSFS, I think.

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by Paul K

All valid points!

 I was not advocating for any one stance.

Just an observation and a topic of discussion.

In my FS 5.1 through P3Dv4 days I had and enjoyed all kinds of liveries, only that has changed since MSFS.

(But it was much easier, S key, to take a look outside)

And I love plane spotting and do it regularly at: KTPA, KMCO (sometimes its not easy there) and KMIA.

And I am not naive, it’s a thought experiment. I clearly acknowledged that there’s no going back - the genie is out of the bottle. 

Just wondered what others’ experience has been like.

 

 

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by Los

Yes MSFS is for my entertainment: to "entertain" nostalgia very often, as I like to recreate flights I lived as a pilot or as a passenger worldwide, so for me the exterior world is as important as the interior cockpit, the vast difference and advantage of MSFS is that the outside world now means something, whereas P3D and its predecessors were mediocre renditions of it. When I recognise what I saw in real life. starting with tarmac spaces. I enjoy spending some time on the ground watching the aircraft I am about to fly, and call my souvenirs from their brain drawers full of cobwebs. So yes, this is a whole world, not a tiny cockpit, only the smells are missing.

5 minutes ago, Bernard Ducret said:

only the smells are missing.

I don't know why you put me back in mind being on the old Hong Kong airport tarmac to board, in a sultry low ceiling tropical weather with  the kerosene smell in the background, looking at the planes 😏.  Funny hey ? 35-odd years ago.

20 minutes ago, Los said:

 I was not advocating for any one stance.

Just an observation and a topic of discussion.

This is how I took it 

For me, flight simulation is about immersion and sometimes immersion can come from just knowing things are correct, in order and if I wanted to inspect it closer, it wouldn't break my immersion. If that's how my plane looks, that there's passengers on board, boats sailing the globe despite me not being near, that I could land down at that airport and it would look amazing, even though I can't see it from up here, it all givers a greater sense of immersion as you know you won't get presented with something that potentially breaks your suspension of disbelief.

52 minutes ago, Los said:

Just an observation and a topic of discussion.

Nope, not allowed. Torches, pitchforks and cries of 'burn the heretic' should you hold an alternative viewpoint. 🙃

Personally, I very much like the exterior prettiness. Seeing all the different liveries of aircraft that I'm about to fly/just finished flying, wandering around pre- and post-flight on the ramp area and (whisper it quietly on Avsim) even wander around the detailed terminal interiors is great.

The MSFS world and the detailed model and texturing on aircraft, buildings and objects provide such a fantastic combination that you nearly just have to 'point and click' to have a good screenshot now.

IMO, none of the eye-candy prevented development of flight or systems modelling. However, the absence of pretty customisation such as liveries would kill off a lot of interest in the sim.

1 hour ago, Los said:

All valid points!

 I was not advocating for any one stance.

Just an observation and a topic of discussion.

...

Just wondered what others’ experience has been like.

Not a problem for me.  You helped inspire conversation on the topic, and it made me realise what MSFS means to me.  I didn't fully realise myself until I thought about it.

47 minutes ago, Paul K said:

I bet an awful lot of us do that, particularly with such aircraft as PMDG's DC-6, which is still the most beautiful thing created for MSFS, I think.

She was a fun (but challenging) aircraft to paint.   I added a lot of details through extensive research on each livery I created (spent more time researching as good photos of the old girl were hard to come by)

This USAF MATS livery took a while as it was hard to find any good pics of the wings...I finally got them and got the non-skid pattern correct.  The yellow decals over the cockpit windows were especially challenging due to how the 3d model is stitched together there.

I recall it taking more time than I care to admit to get the Everts "Blue Canoe" detailed.   I worked with a former Everts mechanic who worked on her to get exclusive pics to add details that I otherwise never would have known existed.  The red cowl flap indicates the engine was just changed less than 100 hours ago and needs mineral oil run thru it vs standard oil.  That pic of the wing was one of his personal pics he shared with me, and shows where the water filler cap is for the water injection system...which I added to my paint.  On the main pic you see the black patches under the flaps...those are rubber mats added to the flaps to keep rocks from dinging them on gravel runways.  And more subtly, the rudder has a different reflective property than the vertical stab...that's because its covered with fabric, not metal. 🙂 

I know that even if I flooded the post with the thousands of external screens I've taken over the years, it would not convince the die-hard cockpit simmers to venture outside every once in a while. 😁  To each his own, I don't pass judgement anyone's simming preference, I just try to provide visual examples of the world outside the cockpit in hopes it may spark some curiosity of what they are missing out on.

Personally, my immersion is ruined every time a neighbor fires up his obnoxiously loud weed trimmer outside my office window.  I tried to integrate the sound into my immersion by pretending it was another noisy prop plane (or ultra-light) starting up next to me on the ramp...but when you're at 35,000 feet in cruise, its hard to incorporate that sound into your immersion bubble. LoL

 

PS
I know this unique Everts bird had a sad ending, the video of her last landing proved that no matter how thick those rubber mats under the flaps were, they could not prevent bad things happening when the right MLG hits a rock berm. 😞 

2 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

in a sultry low ceiling tropical weather with  the kerosene smell in the background

I also have fond memories of fuel smells when I was on a refueling stop in Tambacounda, and remember those poor souls pumping manually from heavy barrels that they had rolled over from a tin hangar, where the ambient temperature alone should have been hot enough to make them explode! These are the kind of remembrance MSFS brings back at times thanks to its extraordinary concept of Bing imagery, putting almost reality in front of our eyes with a beautiful ambience lighting true to life. 

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by Bernard Ducret

15 minutes ago, Bernard Ducret said:

I also have fond memories of fuel smells when I was on a refueling stop in Tambacounda, and remember those poor souls pumping manually from heavy barrels that they had rolled over from a tin hangar, where the ambient temperature alone should have been hot enough to make them explode! These are the kind of remembrance MSFS brings back at times thanks to its extraordinary concept of Bing imagery, putting almost reality in front of our eyes with a beautiful ambience lighting true to life. 

Smells are very evocative.  Sometimes, just looking at old photos of aircraft lined up at Heathrow airport, I feel like I can smell the kerosene.

I watched a documentary about the London Underground (the Tube) the other night, and I swear I could smell that warm waft of ozone, brake dust, and that strange sulphurous smell in background!  

Maybe it's just me - I could be weird, but I hope MSFS 2028 can have some form of odour reproduction through a spray device!  Not planned for 2024 apparently! 

Edited July 14, 20232 yr by bobcat999