35 minutes ago, Noel said:

You're here now to sell XPlane 12, that's the only reason you're in this thread, and to defend the like-minded like Greazer.

Like you did some time back in the XP forum. Remember? But that was of course an 'honorable' task, while the other way around ... is a 'crime', right?

31 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Wow, this place feels like a primary school playground at times.

More like there are "times" this place actually feels like adults belong here... 😉  They are becoming few and far between though LOL.

Why do some of you find it so difficult to ignore comments you disagree with? This is why Bob Scott posted this advisory message nearly five years ago.

By interacting with people you disagree with you just stoke the flames. Each of you is entitled to your opinion. Unless there’s something factually incorrect you’ll just have to suck it up or ignore it.

We hold back from locking topics or issuing holidays unless there’s a serious breach of forum rules. Saying something disagreeable isn’t against forum rules.

The inflammatory post accusing a fellow member of being a troll has been hidden. Be mindful of what you write.

I'll 2nd what Ray just said.  Now get with the program, stay on topic or the fit will hit the shan!

9 hours ago, GoranM said:

I won’t speak for Steve, but I’d like to share my perspective, which I believe aligns with many others, including Steve, in various forums. 

When Asobo announced their intention to support MSFS for 10 years, my immediate thought was, "That seems challenging. It’s hard to see how that can be a sustainable business model, and they might face difficulties within the first few years."

I brought this up in a couple of flight sim Discords and received responses like, "They know what they're doing. You don't understand how this works."

Just to provide some context, I’m part of several Discords where I’m recognized as a casual flight simmer rather than a commercial developer. I sometimes prefer to blend in to avoid receiving direct messages about product support in communities I don’t visit often.

That said, the general sentiment seemed to be that MSFS would be the definitive platform for the next 10 years. That's typically what people assume when a company states they will support a platform for that duration.

It seems that few considered the possibility of multiple versions being released over that 10-year span, at least in the forums I participate in.

Could there have been a language barrier? Perhaps. However, it might have been clearer if they had communicated that they planned to release new titles every few years to sustain their business model and the franchise. Their wording was a bit ambiguous, especially considering the developments that followed, which could easily lead to misunderstandings suggesting that MSFS 2020 would be the only supported platform for the entire 10 years.

"If it sounds to good to be true, then it IS to good to be true."

And, "People hear what they WANT to hear."

We just need to look around at other flight sim devs, addon devs, as well as the SaaS industry (which is ubiquitous), plus see that MS priced MSFS at the same exact price as the other flight sim devs. It's utterly illogical to convince ourselves that MS meant that MSFS was going to be cost free for a decade.

Again, what OTHER flight sim developer, or Tier 1 addon developer, would or could make an assertion like that...? Could YOUR  addons be sustained like that...? I.e., constantly improved with additional features and updated graphics, and always fixed for whatever might change in the flight sim/computer OS...? For a decade...?

And as deeply simulated and expensive as your addons are, they pale to insignificance when compared to the effort necessary for a top tier World Simulator.

So, no, you couldn't do it (and that's okay because it would be unreasonable for anyone to believe so). And no other flight sim / addon developer that I've EVER seen does it.

Let's look at it this way: how many of us get paid enough that we could stop getting a paycheck for 10 years, continue working a full time job every day, but still be able to afford to live...?

None of us.

Why did anyone think MS was going to be able to do that for 10 years...?

Finally, let's not forget that MSFS was originally announced at Xbox Games, and unlike every single other Tier One flight sim, has always run on the Xbox console. So MS' vision for it is CLEARLY as an Xbox "game"/property.

And guess how Xbox generates a HUGE portion of its revenue...? Right: through the monthly recurring revenue generated by Game Pass. Which runs something like $12 - $20 a month (IDK which one includes MSFS).

Which is exactly opposite of how flight sims have traditionally been sold, right?

And when they (Jorg) said "10 years", he was addressing the (legitimate) concerns of people who wondered whether MS would bail completely out of flight sim as they had done TWICE before with FSX and Flight. Not that they were ALSO gonna stick with it for FREE...

So it wasn't a "language barrier", other than Jorg was speaking in terms of Game Pass, and we were listening in terms of FSX. In other words, it was a failure to COmmunicate on BOTH sides of the convo.

 

9 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

The great flightsim, innovation etc blah blah blah. Sure, in 2020 we were all gobsmacked. Now were closer to 2026..... SIX years on and:-

It is so good the AI still doesnt work, in fact it's even worse now. Just ask FSLTL. Ships from a distance? Aircraft? Lights? Even airport objects? 

ATC: Don't worry, WT are working on it. Apparently. Said many years ago. In the meantime, its regressed. Easyjet HEAVY anyone? 

LOD/Popping of scenery. Awful. Very slight improvements, but see above with AI.

Minecraft Runways above 2000ft. Really realistic.

Made up taxi way directions at default airports. 

And the list goes on and on and on. https://forums.flightsimulator.com/c/bugs/200

 

I have a top of the range system, I am very technical and know what I am doing. These shortcomings are mainly caused by an exceedingly frustrating sim. Sim being the key word. Sure for dollying around in a small GA and staring at the scenery it's great. No dispute (as long as one turns off photogrammetry, because unless you are a distance from it, its awful. Especially if the airport boundary is within it;s area, such as Burbank. Blobs for trees).

For anything else, it's a bugfest. And isn't realistic. Yes some of the planes are grade A+ material, but what use is that when a Japan airlines 777 is taking off from Inverness airport and slamming down the runway at you, landing gear popping in to place as it gets within 50 foot, and then barrels through you with no idea that you are there to begin with! Super immersive. Not to mention 'Easy HEAVY, cleared to takeoff'. 🤣🤦‍♂️

 And MSFS2020 isnt immune either. But at least it has some AI addons that actually work and the LOD isnt as bad. 

Don't worry though, we'll have another Q&A soon, where they can continue to ignore or fob off these issues. Roll on MSFS2028, right?

And I am fully aware those staunch Asobo defenders will jump on this, or Noel will because he can't handle a difference of opinion, because his sim is stuper stable with 0.00000 nanoseconds of smoothness. Great. Doesn't mean much when they cant even get ATC to a passable standard. And the LOD system is broken. 

Prepar3D and X-Plane 11 await you. None of those issues, for sure.

26 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

It's utterly illogical to convince ourselves that MS meant that MSFS was going to be cost free for a decade.

That's why it was so surprising.  At least to me.  That's precisely why I told people, Asobo will go out of business if they release, support and update the same version of MSFS, for 10 years.  It's not sustainable.  But that doesn't discount the assumption that people had of Asobo when they mentioned they will "support and update MSFS for 10 years."  (Their words).  

Again...context and clarity is key here.  What they said could be, and WAS misunderstood by many.  Including developers like myself and Steve.  There are countless threads on reddit about it.  

 

@Noel Can you please stop with the name calling?  Ray literally posted a warning about it, less than an hour ago.

Edited May 1, 20251 yr by GoranM

9 hours ago, GoranM said:

When MSFS first came out, and Asobo's statement of 10 year support was announced, the praise was coming thick and fast.  

You mention common sense and logic.  Well how about this statement from Asobo...

French studio Bordeaux, Asobo Studio, launched the new edition of Microsoft Flight Simulator, launched last August for Windows 10, which has already accumulated several billion flight hours.

A game that was made by 120 studio employees in its development, and that the company confirms that it will support content and updates for at least 10 years.

https://www.madinfinite.com/news/asobo-studio-says-it-will-maintain-content-support-and-updates-on-microsoft-flight-simulator-for-10-years/

Content and updates.  Again, they should have made it clearer.  An update is not a new version.  I consider that an UPGRADE.  As in "Paid Upgrade" or "Free Upgrade".  Windows has updates.  Apps have updates.  Add ons have updates.  

Don't quote an article paraphrasing MS/Asobo. Especially if there is NOT A SINGLE first party statement in that article addressing your assertion.

Quote MS/Asobo. Here, like this quote from Jorg himself:

"When I said that about the ten years, it’s funny because some people say, “so is it over after ten years?” I’m like, no, that’s not what I tried to say. What I meant to say was, this is not just some flash in the pan. We’re not just making this game, putting it out and then we’re all doing something completely different after that. That you cannot do. That was going back all the way when I pitched the new flight sim to Phil Spencer, and he looked at me and he said, “okay, sounds good, but when we get in, we can’t get out. We have to stay in!” I said to him, “Phil, we all signed up for ten years.” Because when Flight Simulator X (FSX) basically ended and the community saw that were like “what’s just happened?” That cannot happen again. And that’s what I said, hey, look, we’re into this for a decade."

This entire situation is like the game of "Telephone". 🤣

Microsoft committed to a 10 year project that wouldn't be cut off like FSX or Flight. That's it.

A second inflammatory post by the same individual has been hidden. One more and a holiday will be issued.

37 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

"Si suena demasiado bueno para ser verdad, entonces ES demasiado bueno para ser verdad".

Y, "La gente escucha lo que QUIERE escuchar".

Basta con observar a otros desarrolladores de simuladores de vuelo, desarrolladores de complementos, así como la industria SaaS (que es omnipresente), y ver que Microsoft fijó el precio de MSFS exactamente igual que el de los demás desarrolladores. Es completamente ilógico convencernos de que Microsoft pretendía que MSFS fuera gratuito durante una década.

De nuevo, ¿qué otro desarrollador de simuladores de vuelo, o desarrollador de complementos de primer nivel, haría o podría hacer una afirmación como esa...? ¿Podrían tus complementos mantenerse así...? Es decir, ¿mejorarse constantemente con funciones adicionales y gráficos actualizados, y siempre corregidos ante cualquier cambio en el sistema operativo del simulador de vuelo/ordenador...? ¿Durante una década ...?

Y por muy simulados y costosos que sean sus complementos, palidecen en comparación con el esfuerzo necesario para un simulador mundial de primer nivel.

Así que no, no podrías hacerlo (y no importa, porque sería irrazonable creerlo). Y ningún otro desarrollador de simuladores de vuelo o complementos que haya visto lo hace.

Veámoslo de esta manera: ¿cuántos de nosotros recibimos un salario suficiente como para dejar de recibir un sueldo durante 10 años, continuar trabajando un empleo de tiempo completo todos los días y aún así poder permitirnos vivir...?

Ninguno de nosotros.

¿Por qué alguien pensó que MS iba a ser capaz de hacer eso durante 10 años...?

Finalmente, no olvidemos que MSFS se anunció originalmente en Xbox Games y, a diferencia de cualquier otro simulador de vuelo de primer nivel, siempre ha funcionado en la consola Xbox. Por lo tanto, la visión de MS para él es claramente la de un "juego"/propiedad de Xbox.

¿Y adivinen cómo Xbox genera una parte ENORME de sus ingresos? Exacto: a través de los ingresos recurrentes mensuales generados por Game Pass. Que rondan los $12-$20 al mes (no sé cuál incluye MSFS).

Lo cual es exactamente lo opuesto a cómo se han vendido tradicionalmente los simuladores de vuelo, ¿verdad?

Y cuando Jorg dijo "10 años", se refería a las preocupaciones (legítimas) de quienes se preguntaban si Microsoft abandonaría por completo la simulación de vuelo, como ya lo habían hecho dos veces con FSX y Flight. No es que fueran a seguir usándola gratis...

Así que no fue una "barrera lingüística", salvo que Jorg hablaba de Game Pass y nosotros escuchábamos de FSX. En otras palabras, fue una falla de comunicación entre ambos lados de la conversación.

 

Eagle Dynamics ?

10 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Don't quote an article paraphrasing MS/Asobo. Especially if there is NOT A SINGLE first party statement in that article addressing your assertion.

Quote MS/Asobo. Here, like this quote from Jorg himself:

snipped

Microsoft committed to a 10 year project that wouldn't be cut off like FSX or Flight. That's it.

There are many articles with interviews where they announced they plan to "support and update" MSFS for 10 years.  

I'm not, in the slightest, against them coming out with a new version every 3-5 years.  

How about we look at it this way.  Did they ever say they were going to come out with a new version every few years, PRIOR to MSFS 2024's announcement?  Full disclosure, in many cases, is warranted.  I've pushed out free updates to my add ons for years.  Would I do it for 10 years?  If the updates were small enough, sure.  The Saab has been updated for so long, I forgot how many years.  If I said I would support and update the TBM for 10 years, using those exact words, with no further context, but always planning to charge for every single update, would I be in the wrong?  Or should I assume everyone KNOWS the updates would not be free?

It just takes a few extra words of clarity to stop the confusion.

Edited May 1, 20251 yr by GoranM

I know this is a game but for comparison Enterprise software has much clearer lines of demarcation for clarity.

Software release- Day 0

End of Sale- Day 0 + 5yrs

End of SW Maintenance-Day 0+ 6 years (last day software will be "updated", no more feature or patch releases

End of Vulnerability Support- Day 0 + 8 yrs

End of Life- Day 0+10 yrs

So 10 years of support means 6 years until end of features or updates. 

59 minutes ago, Aglos77 said:

Eagle Dynamics ?

I did bring up DCS World in a previous post.

It's a fundamentally different business model, though, and here's why:

Though the DCS World simulator itself is free, 100% of the add-ons for DCSW funnel through the Eagle Dynamics store front. From which, just like Valve/Steam, ED takes a reported 30% cut right off the top.

So, even if someone purchases an addon that Eagle Dynamics didn't make (and ED make the overwhelming majority of them), Eagle Dynamics still gets paid. THAT is how DCSW, an extremely limited "flight" simulator remains "free to play" (it's rather more an air combat simulator with significant gaps in flight simulation, tbh. E.g., great flight models, almost nothing in the way of weather,)

It would be as though the MSFS MarketPlace was the ONLY place to buy MSFS addons...

Edited May 1, 20251 yr by UrgentSiesta
clarification

2 hours ago, crimplene said:

Well, he opened this thread and he stated some crazy stuff about flags on the moon. He very obviously disqualified himself for any discussion

Its a DIFFERENT OPINION. He hasnt disqualified himself from anything. How is that so hard to grasp? 

22 minutes ago, GoranM said:

There are many articles with interviews where they announced they plan to "support and update" MSFS for 10 years.  

I'm not, in the slightest, against them coming out with a new version every 3-5 years.  

How about we look at it this way.  Did they ever say they were going to come out with a new version every few years, PRIOR to MSFS 2024's announcement?  Full disclosure, in many cases, is warranted.  I've pushed out free updates to my add ons for years.  Would I do it for 10 years?  If the updates were small enough, sure.  The Saab has been updated for so long, I forgot how many years.  If I said I would support and update the TBM for 10 years, using those exact words, with no further context, but always planning to charge for every single update, would I be in the wrong?  Or should I assume everyone KNOWS the updates would not be free?

It just takes a few extra words of clarity to stop the confusion.

Fair-ish, but IMHO still unrealistic in re MSFS.

You have a portfolio of (very well regarded) products. In this genre, MS/Asobo have but one product. So that one needs to pay all the bills.

I can't imagine that you could survive on just the Saab if you didn't also make the TBM & Challenger, et al, right? Especially given the fact that the Saab and TBM remain X-Plane 11-only releases means that the revenue from them must be going down over time now that XP v12 seems to have mostly taken over in terms of user base?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us expect to give you more money at some point in time. For e.g., from the small bits you've shared, I wouldn't be surprised at all if your TBM update required an upgrade fee of some sort as it sounds like it's far more than just a "compatibility" update for XP v12.

I wasn't surprised at all when Flight Factor or a few other devs charged for updates to their v12 products, and I paid for them.

And I'm never surprised when Laminar Research or Lockheed Martin release a new major version that requires a full price re-purchase, even though the majority of the code-base remains exactly the same.

Same with MSFS.

I guess MS/Asobo could've ridden the horse for a while longer, but it seems clear that they've let themselves be driven by customer demand for ever-increasing realism and fidelity. And at some point, that pretty clearly demanded an upGRADE rather than an upDATE.

Could MS have communicated more clearly? For sure, man - totally agreed.

But we could certainly have listened more closely to what was actually said, as well as applying some critical thinking skills to the statements and reporting.

In the end, this is why lawyers end up making so much money... 😉