3 minutes ago, c912039 said:

Really?
And did you get a free upgrade from XP10 to XP11, or XP11 or XP12?
What about P3Dv3 to P3Dv4, or P3Dv5 - did you get free upgrades to those?

 

Right?? 🙂 I'd also like these geniuses to tell us how other new sims on initial release and the early goings had no regressions/bugs 

 

30 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Right?? 🙂 I'd also like these geniuses to tell us how other new sims on initial release and the early goings had no regressions/bugs 

 

I'm no genius (well...that's what my wife says 😂), but I can definitely say that the Serious Simmers simulation, Prepar3D v5, was a hot mess when it first released. And I had FAR more trouble with it than I've ever had with MSFS. Frequent CTDs and such.

Like it's not even close...

And guess what...? Today P3D v5 is an extremely reliable sim in my experience, such that I never have a concern when I load it up.

Thread title should read:  Greazer is Grumpy.

2 hours ago, FPVSteve said:

MSFS 2020 didn't exist until 2024 was announced. Until then, it was "MSFS" and I, like many others, had thought that there would be continual updates to that simulator for the duration that was promised. I didn't expect to have to pay again after four years. And I certainly didn't expect to buy a simulator that was, and still is, a regression over the last one.

C'mon, man, you're a commercial member...

And you're unpleasantly surprised that a paid upgrade was released after 4 years...? Really...?

I never believed that v20 was going to be The Free for a Decade sim. Just doesn't make sense...

Exactly NONE of the other payware flight sim devs has a pay once every 10 years with continual support and updates.

Except maybe DCS World, where the sim is free but you don't even get a global map, and the add-ons are few & pricey. But that's quite an unbalanced comparo for many more reasons...

11 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

Personalmente, me siento satisfecho con la bifurcación de MSFS en dos versiones.

El problema con el desarrollo continuo de cualquier plataforma es que conlleva inestabilidad. Cuando Asobo estaba ocupado con MSFS2020, las cosas solían salir mal, y a veces MUY mal. Actualmente, MSFS2020 cuenta con una plataforma bastante estable, prácticamente libre de las manipulaciones de Asobo, y MSFS2024, en desarrollo y evolución activa, que sigue siendo inaceptable, aunque predeciblemente inestable para muchos de nosotros. No para todos, pero sí, aún no está lista para el gran momento para muchos.

Pasaron más de tres años desde el lanzamiento de MSFS2020 y su ecosistema hasta el punto de considerarlo para uso rutinario. MSFS 2024 lleva menos de seis meses en el mercado, así que, basándome en mis más de 30 años de experiencia en simulación, no tengo expectativas reales de estabilidad por un tiempo. Históricamente, este tipo de evolución tiene muchos precedentes y me parece bastante normal: FSX tardó más de tres años desde su lanzamiento en madurar lo suficiente como para que siquiera pensara en dejar de usar FS9; Lockheed Martin tardó casi cinco años en que P3D alcanzara el umbral de usabilidad con el lanzamiento de P3D v3, y XPlane fue un desastre durante muchos años, inutilizable para mí hasta después del lanzamiento de XP11, que tuvo algunos años para desarrollarse.

Disponer de una opción "desarrollada" (2020) y una opción "en desarrollo" (2024) nos aleja de lo que considero el mayor problema inherente al modelo servidor-cliente: que la única constante es el cambio mismo, y además, el cambio forzado . MSFS2020 ofrece ahora un punto de partida relativamente seguro, lejos de las arenas movedizas, para quienes se han sentido frustrados por el tiovivo, mientras que MSFS2024 puede iluminar a los aventureros dispuestos a aceptar el riesgo del cambio y la inestabilidad impulsados por el desarrollo para ser los primeros en disfrutar de los frutos del progreso.

That is the key. Mandatory updates to a product developed by a studio that has lousy quality control.

I have a feeling we have a short memory, if they ever release a major SU for 2020 I'm sure many will take the blindfold off and the stable simulator label will disappear and we'll be back to square one.😀

1 hour ago, ryanbatc said:

Thread title should read:  Greazer is Grumpy.

Thread title should read:  Greazer is Grumpy (Again ... and again, and again, and again      iterum et iterum )
Fixed it for you 🙂

3 hours ago, FPVSteve said:

Until then, it was "MSFS"

True, the 2020 was added by the userbase. I never thought however a ten your commitment would mean sticking with the same platform. It seemed logical to release new versions every view years, like with many other platforms.

1 hour ago, ryanbatc said:

Thread title should read:  Greazer is Grumpy.

Or Greazer is running out of grease LOL

38 minutes ago, Aglos77 said:

I have a feeling we have a short memory, if they ever release a major SU for 2020 I'm sure many will take the blindfold off and the stable simulator label will disappear and we'll be back to square one.😀

These are not Devs I can trust.

The fact that we suddenly have this 2020 issue now, with sim not shutting down, and it left unfixed, then what's the story?

Is this sim being sabotaged on purpose 🤔

25 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Estos no son desarrolladores en los que pueda confiar.

El hecho de que de repente tengamos este problema de 2020 ahora, con la tarjeta SIM que no se apaga y no se solucionó, entonces, ¿cuál es la historia?

¿Este Sim está siendo saboteado a propósito  ? 🤔

I simply think that quality control is not their priority and it's something that in the end doesn't help them to have a very good image as a development studio, unfortunately there are many studios with that bad reputation in the videogame world.

 I never looked favourably on mandatory updates and time proved us right.

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

C'mon, man, you're a commercial member...

And you're unpleasantly surprised that a paid upgrade was released after 4 years...? Really...?

I never believed that v20 was going to be The Free for a Decade sim. Just doesn't make sense...

Exactly NONE of the other payware flight sim devs has a pay once every 10 years with continual support and updates.

Except maybe DCS World, where the sim is free but you don't even get a global map, and the add-ons are few & pricey. But that's quite an unbalanced comparo for many more reasons...

I won’t speak for Steve, but I’d like to share my perspective, which I believe aligns with many others, including Steve, in various forums. 

When Asobo announced their intention to support MSFS for 10 years, my immediate thought was, "That seems challenging. It’s hard to see how that can be a sustainable business model, and they might face difficulties within the first few years."

I brought this up in a couple of flight sim Discords and received responses like, "They know what they're doing. You don't understand how this works."

Just to provide some context, I’m part of several Discords where I’m recognized as a casual flight simmer rather than a commercial developer. I sometimes prefer to blend in to avoid receiving direct messages about product support in communities I don’t visit often.

That said, the general sentiment seemed to be that MSFS would be the definitive platform for the next 10 years. That's typically what people assume when a company states they will support a platform for that duration.

It seems that few considered the possibility of multiple versions being released over that 10-year span, at least in the forums I participate in.

Could there have been a language barrier? Perhaps. However, it might have been clearer if they had communicated that they planned to release new titles every few years to sustain their business model and the franchise. Their wording was a bit ambiguous, especially considering the developments that followed, which could easily lead to misunderstandings suggesting that MSFS 2020 would be the only supported platform for the entire 10 years.

1 minute ago, GoranM said:

I won’t speak for Steve, but I’d like to share my perspective, which I believe aligns with many others, including Steve, in various forums. 

When Asobo announced their intention to support MSFS for 10 years, my immediate thought was, "That seems challenging. It’s hard to see how that can be a sustainable business model, and they might face difficulties within the first few years."

I brought this up in a couple of flight sim Discords and received responses like, "They know what they're doing. You don't understand how this works."

Just to provide some context, I’m part of several Discords where I’m recognized as a casual flight simmer rather than a commercial developer. I sometimes prefer to blend in to avoid receiving direct messages about product support in communities I don’t visit often.

That said, the general sentiment seemed to be that MSFS would be the definitive platform for the next 10 years. That's typically what people assume when a company states they will support a platform for that duration.

It seems that few considered the possibility of multiple versions being released over that 10-year span, at least in the forums I participate in.

Could there have been a language barrier? Perhaps. However, it might have been clearer if they had communicated that they planned to release new titles every few years to sustain their business model and the franchise. Their wording was a bit ambiguous, especially considering the developments that followed, which could easily lead to misunderstandings suggesting that MSFS 2020 would be the only supported platform for the entire 10 years.

To reiterate for you

Was there a free upgrade from XP10 to XP11, or XP11 or XP12?
What about P3Dv3 to P3Dv4, or P3Dv5 - did LM offer free upgrades to those versions?

LR have stated that they will continue to support and enhance XP.
Did YOU ever expect LR NOT to release new major versions during XP's lifetime and NOT charge for a new version? If not, then why should you cast shade over a competing company's statement.

Sometimes it feels like some throw away common sense and logic on this site just to push/further an illogical point of argument.

The great flightsim, innovation etc blah blah blah. Sure, in 2020 we were all gobsmacked. Now were closer to 2026..... SIX years on and:-

It is so good the AI still doesnt work, in fact it's even worse now. Just ask FSLTL. Ships from a distance? Aircraft? Lights? Even airport objects? 

ATC: Don't worry, WT are working on it. Apparently. Said many years ago. In the meantime, its regressed. Easyjet HEAVY anyone? 

LOD/Popping of scenery. Awful. Very slight improvements, but see above with AI.

Minecraft Runways above 2000ft. Really realistic.

Made up taxi way directions at default airports. 

And the list goes on and on and on. https://forums.flightsimulator.com/c/bugs/200

 

I have a top of the range system, I am very technical and know what I am doing. These shortcomings are mainly caused by an exceedingly frustrating sim. Sim being the key word. Sure for dollying around in a small GA and staring at the scenery it's great. No dispute (as long as one turns off photogrammetry, because unless you are a distance from it, its awful. Especially if the airport boundary is within it;s area, such as Burbank. Blobs for trees).

For anything else, it's a bugfest. And isn't realistic. Yes some of the planes are grade A+ material, but what use is that when a Japan airlines 777 is taking off from Inverness airport and slamming down the runway at you, landing gear popping in to place as it gets within 50 foot, and then barrels through you with no idea that you are there to begin with! Super immersive. Not to mention 'Easy HEAVY, cleared to takeoff'. 🤣🤦‍♂️

 And MSFS2020 isnt immune either. But at least it has some AI addons that actually work and the LOD isnt as bad. 

Don't worry though, we'll have another Q&A soon, where they can continue to ignore or fob off these issues. Roll on MSFS2028, right?

And I am fully aware those staunch Asobo defenders will jump on this, or Noel will because he can't handle a difference of opinion, because his sim is stuper stable with 0.00000 nanoseconds of smoothness. Great. Doesn't mean much when they cant even get ATC to a passable standard. And the LOD system is broken. 

Edited May 1, 20251 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

1 minute ago, c912039 said:

Was there a free upgrade from XP10 to XP11, or XP11 or XP12?

Well, first of all, you're comparing a company that is working under a larger company, that is owned by shareholders to an independent company with 20 or so developers.  But I'll answer your question.

No, because neither Austin Meyer, nor anyone else at Laminar, promise support for 10 years for "X-Plane".  They promise support for the life of the current X-Plane version, for the duration of that version, until the next version comes along.  Once that new version comes along, support for the previous version is very sparse for several months, until support is dropped for that previous version.

2 minutes ago, c912039 said:

What about P3Dv3 to P3Dv4, or P3Dv5 - did LM offer free upgrades to those versions?

I don't follow P3D, so I can't comment on their business practises.  They have very different terms and conditions to Laminar and MSFS.

2 minutes ago, c912039 said:

LR have stated that they will continue to support and enhance XP.

Please provide a link to that statement.  Not calling anyone a liar, but I need further context on what was exactly said.

3 minutes ago, c912039 said:

Did YOU ever expect LR NOT to release new major versions during XP's lifetime and NOT charge for a new version?

That's irrelevant.  Every version of X-Plane is followed by a sequential number.  When MSFS came out, it was simply titled MSFS.  Not MSFS 2020, or MSFS 11 (Not including Flight as part of the franchise).

9 minutes ago, c912039 said:

If not, then why should you cast shade over a competing company's statement.

Because I'm an MSFS customer, with a legitimate copy of MSFS, paid for on Steam, 6 months after it released.  Regardless of that fact, I'm still perfectly entitled to share an opinion in a discussion forum.  And it's my opinion, along with many others, that Asobo should've clarified their intentions of releasing a new version every 3-5 years.  

Just because I'm not a chef, doesn't mean I can't criticize a meal I buy at a restaurant.

I'm not against what they did, by any means.  But it would've been made clearer to people, who could have easily misunderstood their original statement.  Particularly those who don't speak English as a first language, and have to use a translation method.

13 minutes ago, c912039 said:

Sometimes it feels like some throw away common sense and logic on this site just to push/further an illogical point of argument.

When MSFS first came out, and Asobo's statement of 10 year support was announced, the praise was coming thick and fast.  

You mention common sense and logic.  Well how about this statement from Asobo...

French studio Bordeaux, Asobo Studio, launched the new edition of Microsoft Flight Simulator, launched last August for Windows 10, which has already accumulated several billion flight hours.

A game that was made by 120 studio employees in its development, and that the company confirms that it will support content and updates for at least 10 years.

https://www.madinfinite.com/news/asobo-studio-says-it-will-maintain-content-support-and-updates-on-microsoft-flight-simulator-for-10-years/

Content and updates.  Again, they should have made it clearer.  An update is not a new version.  I consider that an UPGRADE.  As in "Paid Upgrade" or "Free Upgrade".  Windows has updates.  Apps have updates.  Add ons have updates.  

18 minutes ago, c912039 said:

Para reiterar,

¿hubo una actualización gratuita de XP10 a XP11, XP11 o XP12?
¿Y de P3Dv3 a P3Dv4 o P3Dv5? ¿LM ofreció actualizaciones gratuitas a esas versiones?

LR ha declarado que seguirá dando soporte y mejorando XP.
¿Acaso esperabas que LR no lanzara nuevas versiones importantes durante la vida de XP ni cobrara por ellas? Si no, ¿por qué deberías menospreciar la declaración de la competencia?

A veces parece que algunos desechan el sentido común y la lógica en este sitio sólo para impulsar o promover un punto de argumento ilógico.

Wrong forum!

Please take your XP related evangelism to the correct AVsim forum.