23 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

I know that you will never want to push another narrative. You find all requirement in great details directly at the source: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/120-40B1.pdf

Thanks but this is 34 years old. Do you have a more current version?

Just now, alanw2005 said:

Thanks but this is 34 years old. Do you have a more current version?

It's still valid. Aerodynamics don't change over time 😉

13 minutes ago, Noel said:

There's the difference between us.  You're after gamey type elements which I don't use so am not aware they're broken, and don't care anyway.  I just create realistic complete flights in RW routes and all works perfectly.  You're banging your head against broken elements so good luck with that.  I don't use default ATC/traffic because I'm aware those are not ready for prime time yet either.  But if you're after plausible RW flights from gate to gate and have your piloting skills scored as well you might consider taking on Self Loading Cargo:  in this domain 2024 is going to largely match most of what matters between it and XP.

Oh, I love route flying too! But the airliner challenges are for when yoo only have 15 minutes or less to fly. I can fly routes like this all day long:

 

2 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

I see the OP is posting his X plane stuff all over the internet. Hmmm. 

Bob. That's a bit of an exaggeration. I did ask the question on MSFS 2024 and when people started to say they liked XP12 better, the mods deleted the thread. That's when I came here.

Does all over the internet mean more than 2 places? If so, links please.

I am just asking the question to see if having 2 sims is crazy. If it is, I am crazy because I have now bought XP-12. Installing now.

Edited May 12, 20251 yr by alanw2005

10 minutes ago, alanw2005 said:

Bob. That's a bit of an exaggeration. I did ask the question on MSFS 2024 and when people started to say they liked XP12 better, the mods deleted the thread. That's when I came here.

Does all over the internet mean more than 2 places? If so, links please.

I am just asking the question to see if having 2 sims is crazy. If it is, I am crazy because I have now bought XP-12. Installing now.

Your thread was on that forum 2 hours ago??? And guess what, it still is there now. https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/anyone-using-both-msfs-x-plane/720391

An example of some FAA approved flight sim equipment need to certify X-Plane:

https://flypfc.com/

 

Edited May 12, 20251 yr by alanw2005

10 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Your thread was on that forum 2 hours ago??? And guess what, it still is there now. https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/anyone-using-both-msfs-x-plane/720391

Thanks Bob. It was taken down last I looked and they sent me this message. I assumed it was going to be a gonner. Dang I missed a lot!!

Edited May 12, 20251 yr by alanw2005

9 minutes ago, alanw2005 said:

An example of some FAA approved flight sim equipment need to certify X-Plane:

https://flypfc.com/

 

And one more:

https://www.gleimaviation.com/shop/cockpitbatd/

But be aware - you need extreeeemly highly fidelty and expensive hardware for certification. Much more expensive than any of us has at home. Oh ... wait 😆.

39 minutes ago, alanw2005 said:

This is not true. Do you have a link to the post that makes you think this? Thanks.

BTW, if you look at all the flight sim videos on my Youtube channel, some as recent as today, NOT 1 IS AN X-PLANE VIDEO.

 

You may have walked into this by accident, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  What makes me think it?  Specifically, in the last page (Page 15) of the above thread you said and I quote:  "How does MSFS even have any cutomers with the likes of X-Plane?  Lighter on graphics but accurate on flight charecteristics.", -- how would you know this, if you don't fly X-Plane?  (right or wrong) public narrative maybe?

THEN to top it off on Page 15 you went on to say MSFS is a "game".  Which it may well be, as all of these sims are, but generally when people post the two sentences you posted, "game" is used as a perjorative.  But again, you have a low post count here and you may have inadvertantly backed into that...if so, I apologize for jumping to conclusions, although it really shouldn't matter what sim(s) you fly, have fun with all of it I say.

I'm glad they moved this thread to Hangar Chat.  Bravo mods.

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

You can see that in the table containing all 4 types of certification, A to D. For ex:

"Control forces and control travel which correspond to that of the replicated airplane. Control forces should react in the same manner as in the airplane under the same flight conditions."

or

"Effect of aerodynamic changes for various combinations of drag and thrust normally encountered in flight corresponding to actual flight conditions, including the effect of change in airplane attitude, thrust, drag, altitude, temperature, gross weight, center of gravity location, and configuration."

And can you show me the source, where the FAA says that flight dynamism and acuracy of the flight-behaviour are not important in the FAA-certification?

Sorry that quote does not mean "FAA certification = sim has high fidelity flight dynamics". And no, I don't have to show that the FAA certification goes out of its way to say flight dynamics and systems fidelity are not important to meet the certification 😂

They list the requirements, and the quality and fidelity of a sim's flight dynamics and systems etc are *not* part of the criteria, and certainly not the FAA level that XP and P3D are certified for. Once again, if flight dynamics were so key for the FAA certification, how could something like P3D, using FSX flight dynamics, get that certification?

You have already been repeatedly told this, on the XP forum no less by other XP fans (https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/670942-how-many-simmers-have-both-msfs-and-x-plane/page/3/#findComment-5462458), but yet you keep wanting to propagate a myth that's been soundly debunked, over and over again 🤷‍♂️
 

 

Edited May 12, 20251 yr by lwt1971

5 minutes ago, Mace said:

 

You may have walked into this by accident, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  What makes me think it?  Specifically, in the last page (Page 15) of the above thread you said and I quote:  "How does MSFS even have any cutomers with the likes of X-Plane?  Lighter on graphics but accurate on flight charecteristics.", -- how would you know this, if you don't fly X-Plane?  (right or wrong) public narrative maybe?

THEN to top it off on Page 15 you went on to say MSFS is a "game".  Which it may well be, as all of these sims are, but generally when people post the two sentences you posted, "game" is used as a perjorative.  But again, you have a low post count here and you may have inadvertantly backed into that...if so, I apologize for jumping to conclusions, although it really shouldn't matter what sim(s) you fly, have fun with all of it I say.

I'm glad they moved this thread to Hangar Chat.  Bravo mods.

I have watched a lot of X-Plane videos and have been reading about its high fidelity aircraft. I haver been reading about flight simulators running it and it being FAA certifiable.

I have now bought X-Plane 12. It finally installed. I took a quick flight in the 172. A lot more realistic than the 172 in MSFS 2024. You have to use rudders for a co-ordinated turn or it slips or skids. Wow!!

I post my flights on Youtube to learn from mistakes. Not one of my videos to date is on X-Plane. That will change soon.

Thanks for your note. Happy flying.

11 minutes ago, Mace said:

You may have walked into this by accident, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  What makes me think it?  Specifically, in the last page (Page 15) of the above thread you said and I quote:  "How does MSFS even have any cutomers with the likes of X-Plane?  Lighter on graphics but accurate on flight charecteristics.", -- how would you know this, if you don't fly X-Plane?  (right or wrong) public narrative maybe?

THEN to top it off on Page 15 you went on to say MSFS is a "game".  Which it may well be, as all of these sims are, but generally when people post the two sentences you posted, "game" is used as a perjorative.  But again, you have a low post count here and you may have inadvertantly backed into that...if so, I apologize for jumping to conclusions, although it really shouldn't matter what sim(s) you fly, have fun with all of it I say.

I'm glad they moved this thread to Hangar Chat.  Bravo mods.

Indeed... one only has to simply look at said individual's posting history (and other usual suspects who keenly monitor the MSFS forum waiting for the opportunity to either denigrate it and/or bring attention to their precious) to realize the narratives they try so hard to push 🙂 
 

2 minutes ago, alanw2005 said:

I have watched a lot of X-Plane videos and have been reading about its high fidelity aircraft. I haver been reading about flight simulators running it and it being FAA certifiable.

I have now bought X-Plane 12. It finally installed. I took a quick flight in the 172. A lot more realistic than the 172 in MSFS 2024. You have to use rudders for a co-ordinated turn or it slips or skids. Wow!!

I post my flights on Youtube to learn from mistakes. Not one of my videos to date is on X-Plane. That will change soon.

Thanks for your note. Happy flying.

You can make it more realistic (if you wish) by installing the Simcoders Reality Expansion Pack (although it is payware).

5 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Sorry that quote does not mean "FAA certification = sim has high fidelity flight dynamics". And no, I don't have to show that the FAA certification goes out of its way to say flight dynamics and systems fidelity are not important to meet the certification 😂

They list the requirements, and the quality and fidelity of a sim's flight dynamics and systems etc are *not* part of the criteria, and certainly not the FAA level that XP and P3D are certified for. Once again, if flight dynamics were so key for the FAA certification, how could something like P3D, using FSX flight dynamics, get that certification?

You have already been repeatedly told this, on the XP forum no less by other XP fans (https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/670942-how-many-simmers-have-both-msfs-and-x-plane/page/3/#findComment-5462458), but yet you keep wanting to propagate a myth that's been soundly debunked, over and over again 🤷‍♂️
 

 

You keep sinking more and more because you simply cannot admit being wrong. I linked the clear source contradicting your wrong statements and the requirements are pretty clearly explained.

And „And no, I don't have to show that the FAA certification goes out of its way to say flight dynamics and systems fidelity are not important to meet the certification“ simply because you can‘t provide that. You have zero evidence for your claims.

P3D and FSX got a certification for being used in a certified setting, simply because those requirements (including those related to the flight behaviour mentionned in the linked source from the FAA itself) were assessed as being enough for a given aircraft-type for that certification. 

18 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

It's still valid. Aerodynamics don't change over time 😉

You do realize that ancient circular applies to part 135/part 121 operators running FFS or FTDs.

X-plane is certified as a AATD/BATD. For that, you can not use the above (old) circular, but must apply the AC in 61-136 (from 2018).

Look what we find in the latter AC

"The aircraft physical flight and associated control systems must be recognizable as to their function and how they are to be manipulated solely from their appearance. These physical flight control systems cannot use interfaces such as a keyboard, mouse, or gaming joystick to control the aircraft in simulated flight."

So basically something that somewhat resembles a yoke(!)

When it comes to flight dynamics, the AC consistently mentions "comparable". Such as

"Flight dynamics of the ATD should be comparable to the way the represented training aircraft performs and handles. However, there is no requirement for an ATD to have control loading to exactly replicate any particular aircraft"

Obviously any high fidelity addon , regardless of simulator, would have no problems passing those rather lenient requirements.

But again. You can't apply a random FAA CA without understanding who the intended recipients are. It looks silly.

This is not the first time some of the X-plane enthusiasts have misunderstood what the certification means (or rather *does not mean*)