1 hour ago, JonathanC said:

No no, he’s saying the real world 787 is soulless .. not the sim one. He doesn’t like the actual real plane and prefers flying the 747 in real life. 
 

at least that’s how I read it. 

that's how I read it also

I think Jack said it best after the 1st test flight of the 747.   

I've never flown either aircraft, but I can only imagine that Joe Sutter's masterpiece flew with the likeness of his soul.  He figuratively put himself into the 747 with his engineering genius, and his relentless tenacity when fighting the bean-counter's wishes to cut his staff kept the project from being scrapped.

The 787 was designed for the bean counters and today's cut-throat business world, the 747 was designed during the era when taking risks to break thru barriers to advance the aviation industry was envisioned by the likes of Bill Allen and Juan Trippe. 

@JonathanC

Yes, that’s exactly right, than you Jonathan.

You guys all know how FBW works so no need to break it down other than to say the little nuances that pilots pick up on to feel what their airframe is doing in the air are all dumbed down.

Hence I find it lacking in feel and feedback, or soul you could say, compared to conventional aircraft.

I will say though it’s unique environmental system is second to none, with fresh compressed outside air rather than bleed providing a cabin altitude of 5 to 6,000ft. That really makes a big difference to how fresh you feel when getting off. 

On 8/23/2025 at 2:25 PM, LRBS said:

Hi Jon, a bunch of us were assigned to the 787 for about a year. I had the same feeling about it. I thought I was losing my mind, and I felt exactly the same way.

Brilliant, glad you agree and it’s not just me being a grumpy old man! ( although I am..not you !)

57 minutes ago, jon b said:

Brilliant, glad you agree and it’s not just me being a grumpy old man! ( although I am..not you !)

HA, HA, HA! I think that we're cursed, perhaps in our minds (for sure in my case), nothing is as good as the 747. NO OFFENSE INTENDED TO THE OTHER DRIVERS OUT THERE!

All of the glass cockpit airliners are soulless to me. Almost everything automated. Not much flying, more FMC tinkering, get bored, stare at some charts. Wake me up when we get there. I’ll take the 727, MD80, or CRJ almost every time. Occasionally enjoy the PMDG 737-700, but looking forward to the 300.

Edited August 26, 2025Aug 26 by desbean

6 hours ago, desbean said:

All of the glass cockpit airliners are soulless to me. Almost everything automated. Not much flying, more FMC tinkering, get bored, stare at some charts. Wake me up when we get there. I’ll take the 727, MD80, or CRJ almost every time. Occasionally enjoy the PMDG 737-700, but looking forward to the 300.

Oh... that one again.

No matter that glass avionics are much less likely to fail on you and are much easier to read. But sure... they have no "soul".

 

8 hours ago, Farlis said:

No matter that glass avionics are much less likely to fail on you and are much easier to read. But sure... they have no "soul".

I think he simply prefers the old steam gauges (as I do)...

That tells your age more than anything else. When I left RL cockpits GPS did not exist and yes one had to figure where and how your airplane was positioned with stuff like VOR, ILS and NDB sometimes DME. Shooting an NDB approach with crosswind was not for the faint-hearted and required some practice, that being said, it does not mean present avionic equipments are useless or that this generation of pilots is any less good and professional than the previous one.

But who can now truly understand the joy of landing in the soup with those old steam gauges in a simulator, and - in so doing - keep your remaining grey cells alive when years have started to progressively steal them?!  I rarely had a feeling of accomplishment when landing in IMC say an MD11 in the sim versus say the Duke with the old gauges. That's not a value statement, only a personal feeling about a hobby that brings back good memories.

The aviation pioneers did not even have those steam gauges and yet had to fly day and night, with good or bad weather, often with defective instruments, a hand compass and a good watch, who remembers that today? Are we truly smarter than them?

Edited August 26, 2025Aug 26 by Bernard Ducret

As a non-pilot, I must say I love reading comments by real-world pilots who are also simmers. One learns a lot. 

11 hours ago, JonathanC said:

As a non-pilot, I must say I love reading comments by real-world pilots who are also simmers. One learns a lot. 

One amusing comment I saw once from a pilot (when some pilots were arguing amongst themselves) was basically, that simmers like to ask pilots things, but ultimately there are as many opinions on these aviation matters as there are pilots, which is the same with 'normal' people of course. 

Personally, while I love their input here, I don't know how they do the job.
I like to take the liners out in the sim occasionally, but doing it day after day with unsociable hours, having my ears pop all the time, while flying a lot of noisy, smelly, and sometimes aggressive/obnoxious human cattle around - I couldn't do it.  Full respect to them, and appreciation and gratitude for getting me to my holidays.

Edited August 27, 2025Aug 27 by bobcat999

11 hours ago, JonathanC said:

As a non-pilot, I must say I love reading comments by real-world pilots who are also simmers. One learns a lot. 

Mainly I hope, that simming is A)cheaper, B) safer, and C)ultimately more enjoyable! 🙂

 

17 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

while flying a lot of noisy, smelly, and sometimes aggressive/obnoxious human cattle around - I couldn't do it.  

😂😂 I couldn’t possibly comment on that one ( but I certainly wouldn’t disagree😉)

Edited August 27, 2025Aug 27 by jon b

On 8/27/2025 at 5:44 PM, jon b said:

Mainly I hope, that simming is A)cheaper, B) safer, and C)ultimately more enjoyable! 🙂

 

😂😂 I couldn’t possibly comment on that one ( but I certainly wouldn’t disagree😉)

Thanks for troughout insights! To summarize, how far is the default 787-10 flight model from real thing? It atleast feels disconnected to me as a simmer too Lol, but otherwise I cant see 78710 would fly like that :D 

IRL 787 pilot for over 10 years now. 

 

I love flying the 787 and much prefer it to the old legacy Boeings I used to fly. To me it’s a fantastic mix of technology and piloting and really looks after you but also lets you switch it off and fly it old school. We’re (in my airline) also encouraged to handfly when appropriate and do things like a visual circuit joining downwind and it’s on things like this that the 78 really shines with the HUD and 3 degree line etc making judging a visual really fun and rewarding. it’s also nice in turbulence and pretty easy to land. 

 

In the sim. . . I don’t find the real 78 much like the 787 in the sim really. Working title have improved the avionics a lot over the years but it’s still severely handicapped by being an old original asobo aircraft. 
 

The question was about the handling in the sim I think? I think the sim aircraft doesn’t replicate flying and particularly hand flying the real 787 particularly well, it’s far too sensitive especially in pitch. The performance also feels pretty inaccurate, to me anyway, perhaps it’s down to engine ratings but it feels very much like an aircraft made using the FCOM and some performance figures from the unreliable airspeed table on the QRH and with very little feedback from real 787 pilots. 

 

As I said though, it’s been improved a lot since the early days of FS2020 but sadly it’s still a long way from something like the PMDG quality Boeings.