8 hours ago, Baber20 said:

Not understanding all the hate..

A lot of AMD bias. Short sightedness. And also click bait.

E.g. all the time spent saying raytracing and gpu compute was terrible and a waste of money when their RTX range launched.

5 hours ago, Litjan said:

this is not about injecting (predicting) frames, which requires motion vectors to "predict" where the pixel will be in the next frame, this is taking a picture, telling AI "spruce it up!!" and then showing the spruced up one instead of the original...as far as I understand. Kinda like a shader you run on your iPhone when making thumbnails for your only-fans account 😇

You are wrong. It is much more sophisticated than a "shader you run on your iPhone when making thumbnails". It was mentioned in the hands-on videos posted above by Baber20 that it uses motion vectors. It uses both pixel color and motion vector. Without motion vector, the lighting in the image produced would not be consistent from frame to frame, resulting in flickering and other issues.

In quote below, NVIDIA also makes this clear.

Quote

DLSS 5 takes a game’s color and motion vectors for each frame as input, and uses an AI model to infuse the scene with photoreal lighting and materials that are anchored to source 3D content and consistent from frame to frame. DLSS 5 runs in real time at up to 4K resolution for smooth, interactive gameplay.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/dlss5-breakthrough-in-visual-fidelity-for-games/

The previews look amazing to me. I think the lighting may look amazing in-flight simulation also. If NVIDIA can use frame gen to give us double/triple frames and now with DLSS 5 can produce more natural/realistic lighting, I see no issue. IMO, all the top games will have this in short order. Most talking it down will be on AMD or will be anti-AI on graphics. Some users online are zooming to the Nth degree trying to find issues that will be unnoticeable in Realtime. 

 

4 hours ago, turbomax said:

fake frames" nay sayers when FrameGeneration doubled my fps to unprecedented values in other simulators

But they are fake frames?  Sort like what happens when you drink too much 😉 … why chase FPS?  But more importantly why allow nVidia/AMD off the hook for lack of actual core rendering performance innovation?  Resorting to prior frames and/or frames that don’t get make it and the trying to discover vectors and guess the next vector/frame is essentially giving up on innovation.  

Here are some of the issues with DLSS5:

1.  The images generated are NOT the images/textures the developer created, a character can look significantly different than the intent of the developer, you’re playing nVidia’s interpretation not what the game/sim developers created.

2.  As in the demonstration, high motion vectors (like a soccer ball) look terrible (not gonna do so well with high motion in flight simulation).  AI could make it better by completely changing its speed and direction in order to make the ball look better … but then you’re actions aren’t really in control of the output at all.

3.  The demonstration video’s nVidia presented were using TWO 5090s for DLSS5.  nVidia claim this will not be “required” for release, but you think that matters … sure 1 GPU will work but at worse visual quality.  So yeah, folks are gonna go rush out and try to buy another GPU (or two or three) to see DLSS5 is all its “glory” … this is such an obvious money grab just as SLI was.

I’m more surprise how some are so obsessed with FPS that they are willing to give up visual accuracy and input accuracy.  Who’s really managing the game/sim, you or AI?  Maybe that doesn’t matter to you?  But when I try DLSS, my landings are very inconsistent  as I feel disconnected from what I see and my input.  Unless one is really suffering from FPS (below 30 most of the time) or VR user, then I can see a reason to use fake frames because either way input to output will not be as expected.

The biggest issue I have with DLSS is that it’s not really innovation, it’s a poor alternative for innovation.  If nVidia produced a GPU with lower power consumption (aka much more efficient), better performance, and doesn’t cost $5000 (just for one GPU), then that is what i would consider “innovation” … DLSS is just a lack luster compromise for FPS hunters.  The more people that buy into fake frames, the more likely nVidia/AMD will not truly innovate and we’ll be stuck with fake frames forever.

Mmmmmm no. We don't need to zoom in Nth degree close to see the terrible artifacting/hallucinating when it comes to significant motion. This tech does sound more impressive than fake frames though. Question is if you need 60fps at 4k to make it work acceptably.

Basically nvidia failed to read the room. They used the phrase "gen ai" which is a really bad word right now given the shady business deals (that will never be punished) and angry residents being "gifted" lifestyle-destroying datacenters in their backyard. RAM (et al) prices are a cherry on the top of that pile of icecream. And while it's way cooler than fake frames was, it's still just 2d fakery. If it was a real 3d render, we'd certainly be more impressed. But still angry.

Only a matter of time before AMD comes up with their own version. We'll all shed some tears for Mac users for sure.

XP12 does not need this rendering makeup. 

MAYBE this tech could be useful to turn satellite ground textures into 3D buildings, trees and objects but I'm guessing that would require like a 3 x RTX9090 video cards in 2035. 

No more filters please, just go ahead with motion vectors, frame generation? to each their own.

2 hours ago, SayAgain said:

Here are some of the issues with DLSS5:

1.  The images generated are NOT the images/textures the developer created, a character can look significantly different than the intent of the developer, you’re playing nVidia’s interpretation not what the game/sim developers created.

2.  As in the demonstration, high motion vectors (like a soccer ball) look terrible (not gonna do so well with high motion in flight simulation).  AI could make it better by completely changing its speed and direction in order to make the ball look better … but then you’re actions aren’t really in control of the output at all.

3.  The demonstration video’s nVidia presented were using TWO 5090s for DLSS5.  nVidia claim this will not be “required” for release, but you think that matters … sure 1 GPU will work but at worse visual quality.  So yeah, folks are gonna go rush out and try to buy another GPU (or two or three) to see DLSS5 is all its “glory” … this is such an obvious money grab just as SLI was.

I’m more surprise how some are so obsessed with FPS that they are willing to give up visual accuracy and input accuracy.  Who’s really managing the game/sim, you or AI?  Maybe that doesn’t matter to you?  But when I try DLSS, my landings are very inconsistent  as I feel disconnected from what I see and my input.  Unless one is really suffering from FPS (below 30 most of the time) or VR user, then I can see a reason to use fake frames because either way input to output will not be as expected.

The biggest issue I have with DLSS is that it’s not really innovation, it’s a poor alternative for innovation.  If nVidia produced a GPU with lower power consumption (aka much more efficient), better performance, and doesn’t cost $5000 (just for one GPU), then that is what i would consider “innovation” … DLSS is just a lack luster compromise for FPS hunters.  The more people that buy into fake frames, the more likely nVidia/AMD will not truly innovate and we’ll be stuck with fake frames forever.

1. Right now XP12 looks like a cartoon during day flight, I would hope the images/textures are "NOT" what the developer created, but what they were forced to settle on! using

2. New tech. I'm sure some of these issues will get worked out! Don't know of anything that didn't require adjustments, updates, fixes, hot fixes and so on.

3. Money grab or new tech that needs time to develop? Don't want two cards, don't buy them, they won't be grabbing your money!

Not obsessed with FPS, obsessed with flicker free performance and if there is any base flight sim platform that needs help in this area it's XP12! The hardest hitting flight sim product on the market! One computer one monitor and I still see flickers, 2024 seven monitors and I see about the same flickers!

For you it's not innovation and you're entitled to your opinion, but for many others this will help get XP12 out from looking like a cartoon and maybe just a bit closer to reality!

Edited March 19Mar 19 by Mike_CFII_MEL

8 minutes ago, alexcolka said:

No more filters please, just go ahead with motion vectors, frame generation? to each their own.

That's has nothing to do with Nvidia and everything to do with Laminar Research. 

1 minute ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

That's has nothing to do with Nvidia and everything to do with Laminar Research. 

right, just added personal preferences, if you don't mind.

2 minutes ago, alexcolka said:

right, just added personal preferences, if you don't mind.

I don't mind!

9 hours ago, Litjan said:

I am not sure if this limitation applies to DLSS5 as it was introduced now - this is not about injecting (predicting) frames, which requires motion vectors to "predict" where the pixel will be in the next frame, this is taking a picture, telling AI "spruce it up!!" and then showing the spruced up one instead of the original...as far as I understand. Kinda like a shader you run on your iPhone when making thumbnails for your only-fans account 😇. "Remove wrinkles and hair! Add more hair here! Make this here a lot bigger, this here a lot smaller..."

I don't appreciate our private conversations being posted here thank you.

3 hours ago, brinx said:

You are wrong. It is much more sophisticated than a "shader you run on your iPhone when making thumbnails". It was mentioned in the hands-on videos posted above by Baber20 that it uses motion vectors. It uses both pixel color and motion vector. Without motion vector, the lighting in the image produced would not be consistent from frame to frame, resulting in flickering and other issues.

In quote below, NVIDIA also makes this clear.

The previews look amazing to me. I think the lighting may look amazing in-flight simulation also. If NVIDIA can use frame gen to give us double/triple frames and now with DLSS 5 can produce more natural/realistic lighting, I see no issue. IMO, all the top games will have this in short order. Most talking it down will be on AMD or will be anti-AI on graphics. Some users online are zooming to the Nth degree trying to find issues that will be unnoticeable in Realtime. 

 

Kind of like reshade on steroids! Glad I stayed on my 4090's and decided to wait on the 6090 to upgrade!

Edited March 19Mar 19 by Mike_CFII_MEL

9 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

flicker free performance and if there is any base flight sim platform that needs help in this area it's XP12

No issues with flicker in XP12 for me, but I only run one 4K monitor.  With the appropriate set of add-one XP12 global coverage can look pretty good (trees not so much but PG blob trees in MSFS are no better).  A flicker is likely related to something else that DLSS5 would not cure.

But that’s my point, DLSS isn’t really “new tech” … it’s compromise tech avoiding “new tech” by trying to sell it as some massive break thru in technology.  No amount of “fine tuning” will make it better because it’s NOT based on what the developer provides.

AI or DLSS isn’t magic, it needs a reference to match and adjust … these are pixels being reprocessed by another interpretation (nVidia’s exclusive interpretation).  The ONLY way this will get better is when we get some “real” innovation as I mentioned above … more energy efficient hardware, better native rendering performance, and less cost exclusive price of admission (exclusivity doesn’t innovate).  

This is entirely a money grab from the Trillion dollar man.  If you want to experience something nVidia wants you to experience and not the actual developers of the game/sim and that works for you, to each his/her own.  My only objection is as I stated, this is not true “innovation” … it’s the same BS pumped on YouTube of fake airplane crashes, fake bridges collapsing, fake people that don’t exist, etc. etc.  

21 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Right now XP12 looks like a cartoon during day flight, I would hope the images/textures are "NOT" what the developer created, but what they were forced to settle on! using

totally agree. DLSS nay sayers are barking at the wrong door. it's up to x-plane now to come up with graphics that deserve the label "made in 2026" (water textures flicker here, clouds shimmering there), instead of Nvidia. besides: no one will be forced to use new graphics technology nor RTX 5090s. NVidia is all optional.😄

14 hours ago, SayAgain said:

DLSS5 why bother even rendering anything ... just let AI decide what you should see ... 

...

This is hilarious! 

All you need are TWO 5090s ... back to the future ... SLI ... when engineering hits a wall but you still need more money from consumers ...

The only thing DLSS5 will present are visuals that aren't there or intended by the developers.

You know the world has taken a wrong turn when AI, driven by unfathomable computing power, has been degraded to nothing but a real time fake a## Insta filter instead of, say, simply providing smarter opponents in games. It can't be that the pinnacle of game AI has been attained 20 years ago with nothing smarter ever since.

 

14 hours ago, SayAgain said:

There is ONE industry that will definitely sign up for DLSS5 ... but this site is kid friendly 😉 

Heeeeheeeeheee...

 

10 hours ago, GoranM said:

If/when they add it, it'll obviously be for Windows only.  Apple, for some ridiculous reason, don't allow nvidia chipsets on their products.  Drives me crazy.

Why would they want to? Their M series chips are 100% in-house and work for them and their market.