I feel the need to point out that this isn't a house, it's not like being in a house, and I didn't join under the impression that what I said had to agree with any moderator. Even in someone's house debate and difference of an opinion is not usually a bad thing. (In all fairness, it sounds like a lot more went on over there than a difference of opinion.)In part, Merriam-Webster's defines "Forum" as the following: a PUBLIC meeting place for open discussion.Dictionary.com defines it as 1. "the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city,the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.and Cambridge On-Line says simply: "a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest"AVSIM, (hence the owners of the servers) have no real competitors, so it's pretty close to a monopoly. All I'm saying is, like any monopoly, AVSIM should be careful so not to exercise tyranny. I've actually seen instances (albeit not recently) where tyranny has almost been flaunted.BTW: I'm not even sure why the "Flight" forum was opened so early, anyway. I think it was opened right after Microsoft announced development of the product, right? It's not really a surprised that people got bored and ran out of constructive things to say . . . of course that's no excuse for some behavior either.

The owner of this house may have invited others to this house as a forum....Stlll house his and his rules.

No, I'm not. Not to be offensive, but I speak from personal experience. This is a pretty thorny issue, and I have no idea what happened over at the Flight Forum, and it sounds as if it was pretty crazy, so I'm not sure if closing the forum wasn't appropriate. I was taking a much broader view here.I feel the need to point out that this isn't a house, it's not like being in a house, and I didn't join under the impression that what I said had to agree with any moderator. Even in someone's house debate and difference of an opinion is not usually a bad thing. (In all fairness, it sounds like a lot more went on over there than a difference of opinion.)In part, Merriam-Webster's defines "Forum" as the following: a PUBLIC meeting place for open discussion.Dictionary.com defines it as 1. "the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city,the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.and Cambridge On-Line says simply: "a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest"AVSIM, (hence the owners of the servers) have no real competitors, so it's pretty close to a monopoly. All I'm saying is, like any monopoly, AVSIM should be careful so not to exercise tyranny. I've actually seen instances (albeit not recently) where tyranny has almost been flaunted.BTW: I'm not even sure why the "Flight" forum was opened so early, anyway. I think it was opened right after Microsoft announced development of the product, right? It's not really a surprised that people got bored and ran out of constructive things to say . . . of course that's no excuse for some behavior either.

You're getting way, way out there. A tyranny? Defining the word "forum"? Bring it back, Chuck. Need I repeat myself (and echo others' views) over and over?

What I saw was a reaction to an ugly blemish on the flight sim community (the Flight Forum). So before you go touting Avsim and the gang are unfair, go take a look at just how far some of the threads went in the way of rude, crude, offensive behavior before being shut down.

You keep mentioning how you feel you must "agree with the mods"... What on Earth are you talking about? You've yet to give any example. You've yet to cite any proof. You even mentioned you have no idea what went on in the Flight Forum (the whole premise for this topic you "agree with"). You've basically deflated any weight your opinion had in this thread. Still, you continue with words like "tyranny" and "monopoly". This is getting way too melodramatic. :(

Edited February 27, 201214 yr by ZachLW

Didn't we just have this conversation in another thread which led to a user ban? I wonder how long it will take in this thread?

Much better now its closed there was not much constructive input and it was annoying to read. My opinion.

It had noting to do with agreeing with anything or not it all came down to respect and common sense. Flight became the, "politics," of our community where some people were viewing their own opinion as absolute fact and they got it on their head that anyone who disagreed with them needed to be set straight. Just like you see with many political movements on either side of issues, you get some groups who do the same thing or they completely distort small facts to mean whatever they want them to mean, which was also happening in the flight forum.The same thing happened with xplane vs FS but luckily that's seemed to have died away.

While I support free speech and can understand what the OP is getting at, when posts are filled with page after page of personal attacks such as calling someone a "buffoon" with a picture of a monkey next to it....well, it might be time to close that forum for a while...

You're getting way, way out there. A tyranny? Defining the word "forum"? Bring it back, Chuck. Need I repeat myself (and echo others' views) over and over?Zach, your starting to sound pretty hostile. Relax. I was giving my opinion and trying to be objective, and speaking from a more "GENERAL" POV and not to just the Flight Forum.You keep mentioning how you feel you must "agree with the mods"... What on Earth are you talking about? You've yet to give any example.

Was this directed at me? Your reply post is confusing . . . I didn't write the post you're replying to here. 'Sup with that? And my past experience is all I'm going to offer; there's no need for me to drag something up from the past that's been settled for a number of years.Why weren't the offending posters banned or suspended right away? Why was it allowed to go on for that long? Why was the entire forum closed? That seems a tad over the top to me...(but I could never figure out why it was there to begin with, and I was also smart enough to never go there after my first visit . . . :-)

Was this directed at me? Your reply post is confusing . . . I didn't write the post you're replying to here. 'Sup with that? And my past experience is all I'm going to offer; there's no need for me to drag something up from the past that's been settled for a number of years.Why weren't the offending posters banned or suspended right away? Why was it allowed to go on for that long? Why was the entire forum closed? That seems a tad over the top to me...(but I could never figure out why it was there to begin with, and I was also smart enough to never go there after my first visit . . . :-)

Chuck, the post is confusing because you're not reading it correctly! The quote I made up there was one of my own, hence me saying mentioning "repeating myself". The rest was in direct response to statements like this (let me be clear this time, I'm quoting you here! :( ):

AVSIM, (hence the owners of the servers) have no real competitors, so it's pretty close to a monopoly. All I'm saying is, like any monopoly, AVSIM should be careful so not to exercise tyranny. I've actually seen instances (albeit not recently) where tyranny has almost been flaunted.

Personally, I think the use of monopoly and tyranny are outright unwarranted and rude(-ish). That was my point.We're all friends here, so I hate to seem hostile to you. With that being said, if you feel the community has some underlying "tyrannous agenda", that's your prerogative to think so. :(

Edited February 28, 201214 yr by ZachLW

Why weren't the offending posters banned or suspended right away? Why was it allowed to go on for that long? Why was the entire forum closed? That seems a tad over the top to me...(but I could never figure out why it was there to begin with, and I was also smart enough to never go there after my first visit . . . :-)

If you visited there early on after the initial press releases, you saw what was a 'normal' sub-forum like what you normally see here.It wasn't until the press about the release date and the testing when it all went downhill.It's all there for you to see if you're interested; the entire sordid affair, laid out in chronological order.

If you visited there early on after the initial press releases, you saw what was a 'normal' sub-forum like what you normally see here.It wasn't until the press about the release date and the testing when it all went downhill.It's all there for you to see if you're interested; the entire sordid affair, laid out in chronological order.

Yeah. It's almost as bad as the FS2004 Forum... :(

Mitch, i totally agree with your feelings. Im dutch so im not able to write the senteces like you did in your post but nicely writen. You have my full support on this matter.Greetz, Boby from the Netherlands (freedom of speech)

Maybe we should remember AVSIM's Terms of Service;

AVSIM’s goal is to provide an educational resource, a community for people with similar interests and a resource that is fun to be part of by users from around the world. Your acts or words on AVSIM will not, in any way, infringe upon other’s enjoyment of the AVSIM site…AVSIM is not a democracy, and there is no such thing as "Freedom of Speech" in our forums. If you believe that you are entitled to that freedom here and be able to do and say as you please, then reconsider... Do NOT register.

I haven't seen any actions by AVSIM that are inconsistent with those

I don't think "freedom of speech" means the right to say anything you want. I think it means you have the right to carefully think about your viewpoint and express it in an intelligent manner. I like a good debate, but you can tell when someone is frothing at the mouth in their reply and letting emotion rule. I want someone's well thought out ideas, not froth. If you don't like something, fine, but let me like it if I want.

I don't think "freedom of speech" means the right to say anything you want. I think it means you have the right to carefully think about your viewpoint and express it in an intelligent manner. I like a good debate, but you can tell when someone is frothing at the mouth in their reply and letting emotion rule. I want someone's well thought out ideas, not froth. If you don't like something, fine, but let me like it if I want.

Well said, and applicable well beyond the bounds of this forum, too.

I think the concept of Freedom of Speech (FoS) is best captured by the quote attributed (mistakenly) to Voltaire: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Basically, FoS permits one the space to say a lot of things which can neither be justified factually, nor defended as intelligent throught through comment. In that regard, I think Sesquashtoo is right in what he has written in his opening post, however, I think he may be wrong in the application of it here on the Avsim site. Here is why I think that. Having skimmed very quickly through that topic, my impression is that the decision to close the discussion was not so much based on people saying things which the moderators disagreed with, but the way in which the discussion was conducted, as Bobbyjack alluded to, in a very emotional (basically, angry) manner to the detriment of the discussion and the members participating. I am very new here, so I cannot answer this question without doing a detailed search of the threads, but in order to determine whether FoS is really being undermined, one should look at the history of how the moderators have responded to dissenting opinion, in short, how many dissenting views can be found on this forum which the moderators have left untouched? Those who have been here for a long time are better placed to judge whether the moderators really do take an intolerant view of dissenting views on Simulator issues. Or whether, as I think is the case here, they were applying the rules regarding civil interaction. Bearing in mind that those negative exchanges were allowed to go on for a while, that is, they were not closed off after very few exchanges, I do think one can give the benefit of the doubt to the moderators.What I think is actually the key issue here is the quote that MGH provided from Avsim's Terms of Service. In short, since this forum belongs to them and is public subject to their Terms of Service, (it is not owned by the members in the sense that the public square in Rome was owned by the citizens of Rome), the owners are fully entitled to expect those who join to adhere to their Terms of Service. To give an (hopefully uncontentious) example, in South Africa it is illegal to smoke anywhere indoors, however, there used to be (not sure if it still is) an exclusion where private clubs permitting only members, could still permit smoke inside, provided that everyone inside is a member, whether a smoker or not. Nonsmokers who enter the club do so on the understanding that they may be subjected to second hand smoke. To me, an online forum of any sorts, operates on the same basic principle, you may have to endure behaviour which you find distasteful and should not be required to endure outside of it, provided that it was made clear in the Terms of Service. Avsim appears to have opted to limit FoS in favour of facilitating civil discussion. The merits of the trade off may be questionable, but it is not at once apparent that the trade off is without merit. In the end, I think a necessary question to ask is why it would be necessary for Avsim to have to consider that trade off to begin with, and I think two quotes from (this time geniunely) Voltaire, may help to explain the necessity."To hold a pen is to be at war.""Opinions have caused more ills than the plague or earthquakes on this little globe of ours."Now, I agree wholehearted with Sesquashtoo's sentiment (and indeed also admire his skill at expressing it), but I also see the sense in Avsim's policies, it would serve none of us very well if this forum was to disappear because we couldn't disagree with each other in a constructive manner. In the end, unlike when one is oppressed by one's government (which is the real purpose of Freedom of Speech as a Human Right), if one feels unhappy on this forum, for whatever reason, one can leave without great difficulty. It is not the desired course of action by any means, but it is one which one should, again this is my opinion, be less likely to have to pursue if other members are aware that they should make an effort to engage in civil discussion or face some form of censure.Oh, and apologies to everyone for writing an essay ... I get carried away when on a Human Rights related subject.

Edited March 2, 201214 yr by ClearedtoLand