I have been rather disappointed, rather upset at what AVSIM has decided to do with shutting down (effectively and ultimately, censoring any further comments upon the matter and subject of Microsoft's Flight), and stating that any further discussions that 'migrate' to another forum shall be draconically handled by deletion by the sites administrators....First off, let me state that AVSIM is owned and operated by a private concern. We are all here as guests to this site by invitation of said owner and/or owners. No doubt we all ABSOLUTELY appreciate that this site is even available in the first place!!! I know that I do. I absolutely appreciate every facet of AVSIM and Tom A. as the originator. In fact, my Home Page is AVSIM, the first place that I read/go to upon opening up my browser....I acknowledge that Tom A. has the ultimate 'right' and rights to administer his creation/site in any way, shape, or form that he sees fit. I acknowledge this.Having said that though, I feel that personally we have lost the sense of true, and genuine 'comment from the heart, from the mind' of posters to AVSIM with the way this was decided. I come here to be engaged, to read other's thoughts, whether they be aligned with my personal viewpoint, or whether they not be. This is the spice of life...of the intellect...to engage in free speech, free thought, even if it risks being controversial to another reader. Even if it engages that readers, passion upon the moment. This is what free thought, and engaging postings produce.Folks, I am not talking about slander, I am not talking about personal attacks. These forms of postings have no business in any printed or published format.None whatsoever!!!I just feel now... deflated, and a little intimidated by the fact that...am I to wonder that each and every post by another will not be of a 'genuine content'...but rather so politically correct and parsed...that I can no longer feel the 'value added' to the thread/commentary? Is this what the poster REALLY thought of posted subject.....post Flight Forum shutdown?!?!? Was it...or that it was carefully parsed......I know that Tom has stated that after the release of Flight!, he intends to open up a forum for this subject material once more. But...I'm sure that I'm not the only one as one of the 'guests' to this site, that now feels, that the 'delete finger' shall be hovering even as I, or anybody else shall post content that conflicts with the thoughts of the person, or persons that do have oversight rights upon this site.This is how I feel, and not in any way a personal attack upon those that do have the means to delete, and/or lock up a thread. I feel strongly about, I feel passionately about the right to post my thoughts upon a matter, about being able to read (non-parsed) another's thoughts upon a matter, and end the reading session, (with my usual sip of coffee ((smile)) and assimilate what I have read, and perhaps, what I have in fact even responded to. Folks, this, in my personal opinion, has always been the 'spice' of coming here to these forums. This has always been the attraction, to coming to these forums. I knew that what I was reading right, wrong, or indifferent,....was right straight off the 'hip' of the poster. I crave the genuine comment, the engaging comment....the passionate comment. I feel that we might have lost that now. This is my personal reflection. My feelings compelled me to post my thoughts days after reading Tom's advisement of the shutting down of the Flight! forum. Right, wrong, or indifferent, this is how I feel.Thank you for allowing me to express myself in the form of commentary.Mitch

The problem is the Flight Forum had descended into something of a farce.The rantings and ravings, arguments and flaming were just ridiculous and served absolutely no good cause. After reading some of the truly ridiculuous stuff posted in that forum I can only say that some people really need to get a grip and put things into perspective.I imagine Tom and the Avsim moderators have much better things to do with their time than try and moderate that mess. The decision to close the Flight forum until the actual public release of the software was a very wise one.

I don't think his concern was about the closing of the forum as much as the new 'draconian' moderating that's accompanying it.When they reopen that forum... the slightest mis-step in there could get you banned from AVSIM. I believe that's what this thread is about.

I agree with both of you guys. Mitch I felt exactly the same as you when I read this yesterday and agree with your post here word for word. At the same time I also agree with what EngineRoom has said in reply. My first thought was ... Heck, I remember when FSX first came out and all the negative posts on it but they never shut down the FSX forum.... Fast forward a few years later and now for the most part we are all enjoying our FSX especially with all the great add-ons available to us now. The thing I dont like about the forum closing, and I really never read it that much and only posted in it at best 2 or 3 times, is that I feel that AVSIM is trying to tell us what we can or cant read based on their own opinion and not the "community". I do think though that derogatory threads or personal attacks SHOULD be removed from any forum. If those types of posts are allowed to be kept then that sets the wrong tone overall and it will run amuck in no time.What will FLIGHT bring????? Who the hell knows and frankly I dont even care all that much as my FSX install/add-ons are doing the job well enough. When they re-open the forum on Wed. after the launch of FLIGHT, the whole circus will most likely only pick up where it left off.... what then, close it down again if the threads/posts dont give everbody a warn fuzzy feeling?

I would point out that all of the posts are still available to be read in the "sub-forum" to which it has been moved.. Only the ability to post replies and/or comments has been shut off.Given the rather vague and somewhat misleading information that has thus far come from Microsoft Game Studios, about the only "fact" all of us can agree on is that the new title is spelled "FLIGHT." Beyond that, there's really been nothing to discuss.I see no reason to "fear the moderators and/or administration" whenever the Flight forum reopens. In fact, I dare say that if someone does have any fears or doubts, then it would behoove them to postpone posting until they've had a chance to re-read and reflect on what they're about to post. This alone should help mitigate the problems with "foot-in-mouth" type replies. :(

... very well put n4gix!

They also said they were going to reopen the MS Flight Forum when Microsoft officially releases MS Flight....I think Tom was more then diplomatic with this issue.So instead of calling this a 'Human Rights' issue by claiming 'Freedom of Speach'.....Just see it as what it is. A cooling off period.I don't see a big deal in any of this. Let the Mods take a vacation from all that 'Flight Club' for a few weeks and it will be back soon.Cheers

HelloI have been enjoying Avsim much more since the Flight! forum was closed.I would also like Tom to extend the ban on discussing MS Flight! in the FSX forum after the MS Flight! forum is open again.I am going to try not post at all concerning MS Flight!, from what I have personally seen from the Beta anything I was likely to post could be construed as negative.So in order to avoid getting banned from Avsim it is safer for me to stay out of that forum completely.When did everyone get so sensitive though, it seems like there is little room any more for spirited debate, not just here but everywhere.

Well Mitch, from a Mod´s point of view I admit that Tom shut down that forum for some time. It was there exactly how EngineRoom told, just a farce. They didn´t discuss about the programm FLIGHT itselfe (Well, in the beginning yes) but more about how money-grubbing Microsoft can be (Esspecially after January the 4th.). Someone even asked there whether to could change the forums settings that everytime they write "MS" in the forum, it will instantly be changed to "M$". What does that have to do with FLIGHT? And another thread dealt with am interview of the head programmer of FLIGHT. Just hostility in every post. That whole thing didn´t serve any sense any more, it was just a big flame war against Micosoft and thence it was closed to give everybody a break to cool down.From my personal point of view i have to admit that i also contributed to the FLIGHT forum but allways in a positive way. I thought I could convince anyone out there (FLIGHT has some interresting new features) but just flames came back. We just should be happy that Microsoft does take some money and developes something for such an niche market like FS 8And you have to admit that FS is indeed an niche market). They could have done an MMOPG or something with an wider audience but tehy did it for the oens interrested in avation but haven´t heard anything about FSX or X-Plane. They try bring more persons into FS and if FLIGHT will be an success, they might consider an FSXI.That´s all I will say to that FLIGHT thing till it´s out (And yes, I´ll load it when it comes out).

It's always been that way . . . I'm writing this post wondering if my agreement with the original poster will get me "in dutch" too.

In the Model Railroading forums, there's a hard rule about no politics and no religion. With neither of those available, it's amazing how civil the discourse usually is. In the past, there were occasional thread topics which always degenerated into name-calling and flame wars. One of these, surprisingly, was any discussion of the relative merits of DCS and DCC, two competing digital control protocols used for running model trains. A topic that still ruffles feathers is the "offshoring" of model manufacturing, which is almost universal in the hobby.So, we're not alone over here.Remember, there are two sides to the "freedom" coin. With freedom comes responsibility. The two need each other to function well.

My belief in 'Freedom of Speech' is that there is a time and a place.....but not here.I also think that we are all guests on these forums and they have rules in their house.When I am a guest in someone's house I never feel like I have the right to say what I want because not only is that disrespectful to the owner of the house, also the owner of the house may kick me out and not welcome me back again.Therefore I wish to respect the rules of the house when I am visiting here, and pay my respect back to the owner by purchasing from his store from time to time.Cheers

The closing of the Flight Forum needed to be done, and IMHO it should stay that way.I understand and appreciate the point about a place for spirited discussion and debate; but when it devolved into unfounded speculation,when it became a staging ground for a 'I know more about gaming and programming than you do' shouting match, and when it turned into a place filledwith disgruntled simmers attacking new members for no reason... then it was time to shut it down.I honestly do not know why Avsim became the place where everyone decided to congregate and protest; none of the other 'main' FS sites have had thelevel of vitriolic comments that were posted here.Perhaps all of the 'buzz' will die down once Wednesday comes and goes, but I seriously doubt it.

It's always been that way . . . I'm writing this post wondering if my agreement with the original poster will get me "in dutch" too.

Not to be offensive, but you're coming off as a bit dramatic. Are you not? The OP was thoughtful, kind, and well worded. I've never witnessed someone who articulates a point in a respectful manner "reprimanded" by staff here. What I saw was a reaction to an ugly blemish on the flight sim community (the Flight Forum). So before you go touting Avsim and the gang are unfair, go take a look at just how far some of the threads went in the way of rude, crude, offensive behavior before being shut down.

Not to be offensive, but you're coming off as a bit dramatic. Are you not?

No, I'm not. Not to be offensive, but I speak from personal experience. This is a pretty thorny issue, and I have no idea what happened over at the Flight Forum, and it sounds as if it was pretty crazy, so I'm not sure if closing the forum wasn't appropriate. I was taking a much broader view here.

My belief in 'Freedom of Speech' is that there is a time and a place.....but not here.I also think that we are all guests on these forums and they have rules in their house.When I am a guest in someone's house I never feel like I have the right to say what I want because not only is that disrespectful to the owner of the house, also the owner of the house may kick me out and not welcome me back again.Therefore I wish to respect the rules of the house when I am visiting here, and pay my respect back to the owner by purchasing from his store from time to time.Cheers

I feel the need to point out that this isn't a house, it's not like being in a house, and I didn't join under the impression that what I said had to agree with any moderator. Even in someone's house debate and difference of an opinion is not usually a bad thing. (In all fairness, it sounds like a lot more went on over there than a difference of opinion.)In part, Merriam-Webster's defines "Forum" as the following: a PUBLIC meeting place for open discussion.Dictionary.com defines it as 1. "the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city,the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.and Cambridge On-Line says simply: "a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest"AVSIM, (hence the owners of the servers) have no real competitors, so it's pretty close to a monopoly. All I'm saying is, like any monopoly, AVSIM should be careful so not to exercise tyranny. I've actually seen instances (albeit not recently) where tyranny has almost been flaunted.BTW: I'm not even sure why the "Flight" forum was opened so early, anyway. I think it was opened right after Microsoft announced development of the product, right? It's not really a surprised that people got bored and ran out of constructive things to say . . . of course that's no excuse for some behavior either.

Edited February 27, 201214 yr by Chuck_B