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Microsoft Flight Simulator Preview - 30th September

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18 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You lost me there, both are server based activities ... multiplayer is paying for the server expense and bandwidth ... global streaming data is paying for the server expense, rendering and bandwidth.  There is actually more work being done on a server for MFS geo data streaming than there is for existing Multiplayer games.

Cheers, Rob.

You really don't understand how things work in the console space and I don't think you know enough about what MS is doing to say there's more work being done on MSFS. Xbox Live caters to every single game that is capable of multiplayer. It has to track and store stats, cater very twitchy games etc. In any case I'd love to see you convince console gamers that they'd have to pay extra money a month to play a game that isn't a MMO.

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33 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You lost me there, both are server based activities ... multiplayer is paying for the server expense and bandwidth ... global streaming data is paying for the server expense, rendering and bandwidth.  There is actually more work being done on a server for MFS geo data streaming than there is for existing Multiplayer games.

I'm not sure this has been floated before, so here goes. Since this looks to be a huge bandwidth cost for MS streaming scenery at this resolution, what are the chances they might set this up as a P2P network like BitTorrent, to take some or most of the load off their servers? 

For example, if I have parts of WA state stashed locally on my drive because I fly there frequently, and you want to fly in WA, then my computer starts serving you the data while I have MSFS loaded, along with everyone else who has it on their drives. Anyone with a fast enough connection might not even notice the outgoing traffic. 

It wouldn't be the first "game" done that way. As just one example, the Elite Dangerous space game uses P2P connections between player computers to minimize load on their servers for the multiplayer part of the game. That's a tiny amount of data compared to what MS is showing for the scenery, but the model would still work for those with fast connections.

To be clear, I don't see any evidence that this is the plan. But it would answer the question of "How could MS serve that much data without a subscription."

Edit to add: Oooh, I just realized this would also help with latency issues for those far from the MS servers. If I'm in South Africa I could connect P2P to another South African simmer and have possibly faster uploads/downloads than reaching a distant MS server.

Edited by Paraffin
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Primary sim is X-Plane 11 on Windows 10
i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1660 ti, 1920x1200 monitor

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2 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

But it would answer the question of "How could MS serve that much data without a subscription."

I can point to projects like Stadia that are already streaming tons of data for just the cost of the game. We can't make too many assumptions about what streaming is costing the companies. I've heard Phil Spencer say that they're managing to utilize Azure cheaply. That's mainly because Azure is not primarily a gaming platform.

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7 minutes ago, Krakin said:

You really don't understand how things work in the console space and I don't think you know enough about what MS is doing to say there's more work being done on MSFS.

I don't need to know "how things work in the console space", no company is going to operate their product at a loss ... serving data to MFS users has real costs associated with it ... servers run on power, servers require maintenance (software and hardware), connections to the servers require maintenance, etc. etc. ... how the console space "thinks" this works is irrelevant, Microsoft are not going to operate at a loss, would you?

If you listen to the interviews with the Asobo developers, there's actually considerable information to be gain about what MS/Asobo are doing and it's pretty cool.  And I can assure you MFS servers are doing more than "track and store stats", they're rendering the pixels you see and responsible for making it so visually stunning.

Not my job to convince console gamers and why would I want to do that?  If they see something that brings them value, they pay for it, welcome to basis of capitalism.

Cheers, Rob.

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@Krakin True, they might just piggyback onto the Azure business and Xbox cloud servers and maybe never care about the cost. 

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Primary sim is X-Plane 11 on Windows 10
i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1660 ti, 1920x1200 monitor

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1 minute ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don't need to know "how things work in the console space", no company is going to operate their product at a loss ... serving data to MFS users has real costs associated with it ...

How on earth do you know they'd be operating at a loss?? Did someone from MS tell you this or are you just passing your assumptions off as fact?

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18 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

To be clear, I don't see any evidence that this is the plan. But it would answer the question of "How could MS serve that much data without a subscription."

Skip to 12:30 min key details at 14:00 min ... Asobo developer provide a good chunk of detail how the streaming world works.  Again this is in reference to the streaming aspect which has already been confirmed at a "mode" which will have the highest visual quality like we've seen in the teaser videos.  I'm not aware of any "cached mode" or "offline mode" teaser videos yet? 

Cheers, Rob.

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This is amazing!!! Wow...

so I guess addons won’t be needed???

or maybe just perhaps a payware aircraft 

and asp4??? 

And no more Ssd ???

just fast internet???

 

Edited by mikeymike

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It is beautiful and I was initially a skeptic.  It is becoming increasingly apparent that it will be a subscription based model and not a software purchase.  Petabytes of scenery will be stored on an Azure server, the Xbox integration, etc.  New features and aircraft available for a monthly add-on subscription, no doubt.  That is how you defeat piracy and maintain a constant predictable revenue stream.

 

Jeff Callender


Jeff Callender

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8 minutes ago, Krakin said:

How on earth do you know they'd be operating at a loss??

I've setup servers in a variety of environments and spec'd them out with their associated costs to operate (from in-house servers to AWS).  I know the monthly costs of providing data to end users since I was in charge of that since about 2005 until 2019 in my prior company.  To serve data to about 4000 concurrent nodes (users on at the same time which is not a lot) at reasonable levels of performance, cost my prior company about $2500/mo just for the servers (4 in total with 2-8 CPUs each) and bandwidth excluding (excluding maintenance, licensing, etc.). 

Microsoft will be serving much more data across the globe than my prior company, in orders of many magnitude more (I hope).  In fact, the last data point I got was about 300,000 servers Microsoft own and operate for XBOX Live alone.

As server loads increase so do costs.  Are you suggesting that unleashing 1 Million+ MFS users is not going impact XBOX Live servers and/or cost Microsoft any money to ensure they provide data at a sufficient performance level?  If so, how does that work?

Cheers, Rob.

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to put it in simple words 

i think Microsoft walked back in the room and said IM BACK B______S  and dropped the mic 😁😂this looks really niceee ...


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8 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I've setup servers in a variety of environments and spec'd them out with their associated costs to operate (from in-house servers to AWS).  I know the monthly costs of providing data to end users since I was in charge of that since about 2005 until 2019 in my prior company.  To serve data to about 4000 concurrent nodes (users on at the same time which is not a lot) at reasonable levels of performance, cost my prior company about $2500/mo just for the servers (4 in total with 2-8 CPUs each) and bandwidth excluding (excluding maintenance, licensing, etc.). 

Microsoft will be serving much more data across the globe than my prior company, in orders of many magnitude more (I hope).  In fact, the last data point I got was about 300,000 servers Microsoft own and operate for XBOX Live alone.

As server loads increase so do costs.  Are you suggesting that unleashing 1 Million+ MFS users is not going impact XBOX Live servers and/or cost Microsoft any money to ensure they provide data at a sufficient performance level?  If so, how does that work?

Cheers, Rob.

good to know theres people like you aroud here in the past i worked for foxconn building HP and SISCO servers  .our customers  took us around a few buildings with entire floors full of the servers we built there was a time we went into an area where there was nothing but xbox used servers there was about 19000 in one floor that was a few years back . i figure now there has to be more than 300K 


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1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don't need everything in the first release come Nov 2020, just the basics so I can build airports and maybe...

November 2020? Have they announced the release date?

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