@robert young I see...well if it comes to pass then I guess we'll have no choice but to hope for a quick fix.

On my honeycomb yoke, even though there's 180 degrees of aileron travel there's still only about 3 inches of pitch travel...can be hard to judge from videos at that rate (and joystick are even more difficult to judge) so I'm hoping it turns out to not be as bad as you think. If it does, maybe they'll change it.

Edited August 5, 20205 yr by hangar

Goodness. Is that total 3 inches, or 3 forward and 3 back, making 6 inches altogether?

5 minutes ago, robert young said:

Goodness. Is that total 3 inches, or 3 forward and 3 back, making 6 inches altogether?

Sorry I was not clear at all with that now was I? heh...it's 6 inches total (3 forward and 3 back)

This may have been discussed earlier in this thread, don't remember, but you can adjust the sensitivity and response curves in the sim.  This help my "feel" a lot in x plane.  I took out a lot of the sensitivity and get a lot of movement out of my honeycomb yoke to make adjustments.  Even when i'm near stall landing the 172, i'm pulling back pretty far on the yoke before i touchdown.  Maybe the adjustments in fs2020 will help with the sensitive/twitchy movement.  I noticed this as well in many videos as well. I'm pretty sure a lot of these youtubers are not taking the time to adjust sensitivity.  Hell half of them look to be using a xbox or ps4 controller, or even mouse and keyboard in some.  Just yanking the plane around with every movement lol so annoying to watch 

26 minutes ago, hangar said:

Sorry I was not clear at all with that now was I?

No you weren't. You used imperial measurements instead of metric. 😉

6 hours ago, robert young said:

aircraft at slow approach speed should have increasingly floppy controls, especially in roll but also in pitch.

This can't be emphasized enough.  Sensitivity is a moving target, the amount of input needed decreases as airspeed increases.  In real aircraft this is accompanied by a larger force needed on the controls.  Since most people don't have force feedback there needs to be a compromise with how sensitive it gets, but there still needs to be a feel of more sensitivity with more airspeed.

I used to use a force feedback yoke with P3D and XPL, but stopped because I could make the controls stiffen with speed, but the amount of control needed was very close to the same throughout the flight envelope. So it always felt like I had control problems at high speeds.  

7 minutes ago, Farlis said:

No you weren't. You used imperial measurements instead of metric. 😉

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=convert+3+inches+to+cm 😁

I've seen lots of videos of RL pilots who also use XP (like flightdeck2sim, AeroNewsGermany, Squirrel, frooglesim) who all confirmed MSFS to have authentic flight dynamics (on GA aircraft). Those flights look fine.

Then there are videos where the plane wobbles around with instant reactions as if it had no inertia. Especially noticable when people fly through heavy winds.

Eventually that inertia problem is founded in the interaction between wind and plane.

Edited August 5, 20205 yr by tweekz

While I'm no fighter pilot and have nothing to compare against, I always felt that DCS does the best job of flight modeling when it comes to the "feel" of it. 

1 hour ago, BrianW said:

This can't be emphasized enough.  Sensitivity is a moving target, the amount of input needed decreases as airspeed increases.  In real aircraft this is accompanied by a larger force needed on the controls.  Since most people don't have force feedback there needs to be a compromise with how sensitive it gets, but there still needs to be a feel of more sensitivity with more airspeed.

I used to use a force feedback yoke with P3D and XPL, but stopped because I could make the controls stiffen with speed, but the amount of control needed was very close to the same throughout the flight envelope. So it always felt like I had control problems at high speeds.  

Thanks for that very salient point. Some years ago I flew in a Chipmunk, a wonderful tail dragger with beautifully harmonised controls. The stick was quite a lot stiffer than I expected but what came across instantly was that you needed a lot of deflection at medium to slow speeds. We did some aerobatics and almost full deflection was needed for any vigorous maneouvres.

On landing the stick was RIGHT BACK in my lap in order to get a good flare and three-point landing. I realise the Chippy is not quite the same as Cessnas or Pipers, but the same principle holds. The slower your speed the more input is required for a similar effect.

I do not see anything like this in the alpha or beta videos I've watched. I also see a lot of bucking in pitch when viewing landings, despite the fact that hardly any pitch input is used. This bucking is the result of oscillations that on any well made aeroplane are well damped. You should not have to fight those oscillations or even cause them. The TINIEST aircraft will simply not demonstrate such pitch instability. 

Where larger aircraft are concerned, If you look at the many videos of real world B737 landings on Youtube, you'll see clearly that from autopilot off to landing, even in benign conditions, there is some yoke deflection in pitch but much more in roll to keep on the glide path. While gusts do upset things, you don't correct with little movements but big ones, because at low airspeed there is much reduced authority, which is why airliners use not just ailerons but spoilerons and flaperons.

The only time I have ever seen wild oscillations in pitch is when a low hours student pulls and pushes the stick wildly as an over-reaction to quite slight natural changes in pitch, out of panic. Those oscillations are entirely pilot induced. Most aircraft by themselves are remarkably stable, especially in pitch. Turbulence causes yaw and roll changes, or loss or gain of height but unless severe, not much pitch (nose up, nose down) instability. 

 

Here is a case in point. This is the first video I found today. It is a pretty normal landing. Look at the roll yoke movements, and look at the relatively slow response. Look at the pitch control, which are also quite big movements for not very much reaction. That's just one video out of hundreds you could look at.

Here's another example of a C172 landing at Paphos, in typical conditions. Notice on the last part of the approach and landing how stable it is in pitch. Nearly all the control input is to counteract roll, not pitch. But the yoke movements are about three to four times bigger than I'm seeing in the MSFS 2020 demos in similar conditions. Note, there is almost zero pitch oscillation. No pitch instability. No bucking up and down of the nose. On the flare, which is the only time substantial pitch input is needed in a trimmed aircraft, notice how much the yoke is pulled back in order to keep the nose off. But there is no pitch instability. The nose gracefully rises and holds position. There are hundreds of examples like this, and this also tallies with my own experience

 

Edited August 5, 20205 yr by robert young

11 minutes ago, robert young said:

Here is a case in point. This is the first video I found today. It is a pretty normal landing. Look at the roll yoke movements, and look at the relatively slow response. Look at the pitch control, which are also quite big movements for not very much reaction. That's just one video out of hundreds you could look at.

 

Judging from videos is really difficult... you need to have the controls in your hands to pass judgement on the flight models..  Why not revisit this discussion after August 18th?

I like said, i think most of this can be solved in the sensitivity settings. 

40 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

Judging from videos is really difficult... you need to have the controls in your hands to pass judgement on the flight models..  Why not revisit this discussion after August 18th?

Sure Bert. I am as excited as everyone else. The weather controls look fantastic. The scenery is fabulous. I slightly disagree about needing your own hands on the controls. I can see very clearly that there is an awful lot of movement with very little stick control. I can't deny what my eyes are seeing!

5 minutes ago, robert young said:

Sure Bert. I am as excited as everyone else. The weather controls look fantastic. The scenery is fabulous. I slightly disagree about needing your own hands on the controls. I can see very clearly that there is an awful lot of movement with very little stick control. I can't deny what my eyes are seeing!

I fly A2A all the time in P3D. This is consider the gold standard for GA aircraft. I can tell you that in MSFS, the plane behave the same way to a certain extend. They are not to the A2A level but it's really not bad.  Sensitivity is too high on default value in the sim. You need to tweak according to your controller.  This is why it might feel twitchy to you while watching the video.