Hi Bob,

I am not going to get into debit about how and why you came to your decision to not fly MSFS. 

I will say if you like sim'ing then take a deep breath and leap into the most depth you could go. The challenge is huge and so is the reward. Down Load DCS open beta, its free and buy a aircraft that is a full on simulation. Say goodbye to IRL and see how mind blowing it is. Don't worry about the graphics, the VC are better than anything but the world is not like MSFS. But frankly your mind is never on it much. 

I've just reinstalled it and upgraded my A10C to the newer version. OMG! It is truly mind blowing.

The only Warnings I will give you is, it really is a study sim in every way possible. Forget about firing anything till you can C&D start up and shut down, Navigate, then very small bits at a time. However you will need TrackIR.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

 

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by Nyxx

5 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

No problem - this is just the usual clever-clog, sarcastic, and dismissive response, I expected

+1 👍

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by DavidP

Instead of some phantom "saboteur", I tend to think the issue has been and still continues to be the fact that we are still in the middle a global pandemic.  The team does not have the same access to the resources that they would have in house.  Especially testing.   I guarantee you that MSFS is not something you can test loading it on a VM and testing it through an RDP session via your VPN.  So that means individuals locally testing it at home.  

I am just as frustrated with updates that break things as the next guy.  But I'm also frustrated by the fact that I have to wear a stinking mask when grocery shopping, and not being able have a proper funeral for my mother due to Covid restrictions.  It's a global pandemic folks, and yet some of us appear to operate under the premise that it's all situation normal out there.

Personally I'm shocked that the product was even released.

Perhaps the smarter thing for the team to do would have been either to delay release, or suspend updates while the Pandemic is going on, but Asobo has contractual agreements they need to make to get paid by Microsoft.  

We can sit here and armchair quarterback all day long, or put on our "expert developer" hat and accuse the developer of the "worst quality control we've ever seen", but the bottom line is, those individuals we criticize and demonize also have families.  They are trying to cope with this global pandemic like the rest of us, and they are also trying to balance between what is "urgent" and what is "important".

I don't know about you, but even with it's "bugs" this game has helped me cope with the isolation that I have experienced in the last 9 months.  It has given me ideas of what I want to do when this Pandemic is behind us, and it has helped me escape when the walls of my "home office" begin to close in.  

Over 62 million people have contracted this disease and over 1.4 million have died from it in the last 9 months.  

And I'll be very happy when this particular "saboteur" is finally defeated and we can return to a life where staying 2 meters away from our friends and families with surgical masks on is not the new normal.  

But in the meantime.  It is just a game folks.....

Edited November 29, 20205 yr by wthomas33065

I too am really disappointed with Asobo. I don't know, what work they are doing behind the scenes but apart from the scenery the sim has almost not progressed at all since release. I think this is ridiculous. Maybe MS should stop being nice to Asobo and put some pressure. Maybe let Asobo do the scenery and hire a new team for the simulator. 

1 hour ago, wthomas33065 said:

Instead of some phantom "saboteur", I tend to think the issue has been and still continues to be the fact that we are still in the middle a global pandemic.  The team does not have the same access to the resources that they would have in house.  Especially testing.   I guarantee you that MSFS is not something you can test loading it on a VM and testing it through an RDP session via your VPN.  So that means individuals locally testing it at home.  

I am just as frustrated with updates that break things as the next guy.  But I'm also frustrated by the fact that I have to wear a stinking mask when grocery shopping, and not being able have a proper funeral for my mother due to Covid restrictions.  It's a global pandemic folks, and yet some of us appear to operate under the premise that it's all situation normal out there.

I hope everyone at Microsoft and Asobo is safe and healthy and would not want them to go into an office that would make them unsafe right now, regardless of my feedback on this product. 

That said....in past Q&As they have said they have 40 QA people....each QA person takes home 1 or 2 of the systems from the test lab, and they should have 40-80 test systems available.

We've all had to adjust to this for ~8 months now.  I've personally seen real aerospace hardware getting developed and built by people who were literally given 24 hours notice to pack up their desktop PCs and take them home.  And eventually to build real hardware, someone does have to go onto a factory floor and assemble it.  MSFS can be developed 100% virtually.

 

1 minute ago, marsman2020 said:

I hope everyone at Microsoft and Asobo is safe and healthy and would not want them to go into an office that would make them unsafe right now, regardless of my feedback on this product. 

That said....in past Q&As they have said they have 40 QA people....each QA person takes home 1 or 2 of the systems from the test lab, and they should have 40-80 test systems available.

We've all had to adjust to this for ~8 months now.  I've personally seen real aerospace hardware getting developed and built by people who were literally given 24 hours notice to pack up their desktop PCs and take them home.  And eventually to build real hardware, someone does have to go onto a factory floor and assemble it.  MSFS can be developed 100% virtually.

 

That may be so.  But 40 people doesn't sound like a whole bunch when you start looking at the scope of the software.  As I stated in another thread.  The A/P behavior alone is hard to actually nail down.  I've had three distinct patterns of behavior, from almost normal, to trying to kill me via overspeed, on three separate flights.  And as others have mentioned, the A320 A/P behavior actually changes when you go from starting on the runway to starting C&D.

And how long does it take to setup a test flight that will actually test, takeoff, climb out, descent, approach and landing on a single plane?  Well for the A320, probably at least 45 minutes if you are testing climb out to design ceiling.  

I'm not trying to justify their mistakes.  I'm frustrated like everyone else.  But I do know we all have been working under unique challenges for quite sometime.  Perhaps putting a hold on updates might have been smarter.  But then, MS doesn't pay for no work done.  So there's that as well.

All I'm stating is that we should probably keep things under perspective.  I had to wait for 8 weeks for toilet paper despite the fact that toilet paper factories were working around the clock to produce the stuff.  

It's an annoyance, sure.  But I try to remember that if the biggest issue I have today is the fact that my A320 won't follow my flight plan in my Flight Simulator, then it's a good day.

13 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

And how long does it take to setup a test flight that will actually test, takeoff, climb out, descent, approach and landing on a single plane?  Well for the A320, probably at least 45 minutes if you are testing climb out to design ceiling.  

My expectation is that professional software developers will do proper testing.  I know that's not a popular opinion here and people will come out in droves to make excuses across multiple different threads for why that can't be done.

If Asobo wants to pack it in and go back to making indie games, that's 100% fine by me.  If they want to do a product of this size and scope they need to figure out how to do proper regression testing. 

Like everyone else, I throw in my two cents. I'm fortunate to have a powerful rig and I haven't experienced some of the performance issues that others have mentioned. I've also been impressed with the mods that have been released to the community (WT, FlyByWire, Unrealwx to name a few). These mods alone have made the experience enjoyable for me. Lately I've found myself flying nothing but the CJ4 mod and I've had an absolute blast. While the complexity of the aircraft is certainly not comparable to that of PMDG quality aircraft, I think these devs are quickly advancing that direction, and best of all it's free! 

I do agree with the OP that I feel like each update we see some cool things, but they're not the advancements we should be seeing. Way too many things are breaking with each update. Admittedly, this was the most frustrating thing because we could all see it coming many, many months ago. I still to this day cannot believe they released this product as early as they did.... regardless of deadlines. I've come to the conclusion that it'll take atleast another year before I can fully enjoy the sim to its fullest. I still find myself going back to P3D.... but then I see the graphics and immediately become disappointed. It's a mixed bag for me. For now, I find myself bouncing back and forth for different things between the sims.

In all seriousness though... for those who maybe feel jaded, consider the mods if you haven't already. I can't stress enough how great these folks are for the community. This is what the community needs. Some of the features that are being integrated are absolutely mind blowing! 

What is Asobo to do with so many conflicting reports from users?

The patch before last (early middle November) introduced stutters in my sim for the first time. This last patch cured all the stutters completely. Not a single stutter have I seen since 1.11.6.0. was properly installed, in many hours of use. The East Coast Discovery flight was nice in Ultra everything MSFS video settings, not a stutter anywhere, smooth as glass.

System: lowly Ryzen 3600 cpu and 2600 Super gpu, 16 Gb ram, 1080p 32" monitor.

Maybe it's my low res monitor but fps just does not change much. I think it is FPS rates that are always changing during a flight, rather than how fast the fps is, which causes stutters.

On that flight Easy Coast Discovery flight it was low of 28 high of 31 everywhere. I was down lower than 2200' the better to see the scenery. I do not have frame rates locked and V-sink is OFF.

Since day 1 , I have fewer performance issues with this  version of flightsim than any other version when it was new, and I go back to FS4 (DOS).

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Fielder said:

What is Asobo to do with so many conflicting reports from users?

Provide documentation for the simulator and its aircraft to reduce the incidence of user errors that might be driving problem reports that aren't real problems?

Add telemetry and logging features to the game so that we can provide them with more useful data they can use to solve problems?

Add exception handling routines to things like the virtual cockpit, so that non-working code provides a useful exception error message that Asobo and 3rd party aircraft developers can debug instead of just resulting in a CTD?

They aren't exactly make it easy for people to provide good feedback.

Edited November 29, 20205 yr by marsman2020

And add some event and error logging.  I dont know how many times both P3D and X-Plane log facilities have helped me sort out issues or given me a tangible record to report a bug.

Right now, from the aircraft handling/flight model/autopilot perspective, if Asobo went back to bog standard FSX code it would be a better sim. This simulator was hyped and promoted as a radical departure from previous MS sims. The 1000 "lift points" has become completely irrelevant, and especially so when there is barely a single default aircraft that can reliably get from A to B without some issue or other whether it is the now neutered autopilot, the twitchy ground handling, the pointless jerks and oscillations, poor control response or pitch instability. The only potential improvement has been ground friction, but even that has been ruined by an untameable prop wash.

But instead of admitting defeat, Asobo keeps tinkering away with yet another update that makes already poor handling even worse than before. Their determination to be "different" from FSX is all very well if they actually achieved something workable. 

The weather effects on aircraft were ludicrously exaggerated from day one, but someone at Asobo is too stubborn to admit it and tone things down. It is still absurdly over the top.It really is not difficult to make a sim that at least is as good as something that was released a decade and a half ago. As people are beginning to realise, a sim that looks very pretty but cannot emulate a decently flying aircraft is not worthy of the name "simulator". 

The best thing they could do now is stop thinking they can pile one patch on top of another and hope things improve. They clearly are not. Get rid of all the baked in effects, go back to reliable code that works to a certain standard and stop tinkering with things that are fundamentally flawed. 

To anyone with any understanding of how aircraft respond and fly, this sim is not fit for purpose. There are addons that address these flaws but the energy to overcome them is extremely time consuming and frustrating. What is needed is a decent TEMPLATE for each category of aircraft: piston props, turboprops, small and large jets and a reliable, well constructed flight model that could be applied to any like aircraft with a few adjustments. There are well established and proven people that could do this.

The thread asking for "respect" for Asobo might like to consider that it is rather arrogant to come out with updates that completely obliterate livery access, and not apologise for this major gaffe, then reverse it without notice so everyone now has wasted many hours work adapting to the previous update. So too with the latest disastrous autopilot update. At the very least you might reasonably expect a very rapid patch to reverse it, but no apology has been made, and no admittance that it was a bad move. I don't see much "respect" being demonstrated here, so I do not feel inclined to show much in return.

 

 

Edited November 29, 20205 yr by robert young

" To anyone with any understanding of how aircraft respond and fly, this sim is not fit for purpose. "

I'm finding changing a very few lines in flight_model.cfg makes all the standard edition default planes, and all add-on planes I purchased, fly with no significant defects compared to FSX planes. Changing the weight balance lines (3 text lines) ends fishtailing on the runway. Changing effectiveness (3 lines for the 3 primary control surfaces) cures the wild controller responses.

The deluxe and premium planes I cannot fix, only because the files are hidden.

The AP is for me a unfixable mess. I have never seen anything like the poor AP's in this sim. Imagine a real world company selling such auto pilots: lawsuits!

8 minutes ago, Fielder said:

" To anyone with any understanding of how aircraft respond and fly, this sim is not fit for purpose. "

I'm finding changing a very few lines in flight_model.cfg makes all the standard edition default planes, and all add-on planes I purchased, fly with no significant defects compared to FSX planes. Changing the weight balance lines (3 text lines) ends fishtailing on the runway. Changing effectiveness (3 lines for the 3 primary control surfaces) cures the wild controller responses.

The deluxe and premium planes I cannot fix, only because the files are hidden.

The AP is for me a unfixable mess. I have never seen anything like the poor AP's in this sim. Imagine a real world company selling such auto pilots: lawsuits!

That is true to an extent. However I disagree about the significant defects. It requires a lot more tuning than changing a few inertia values and effectiveness values to get a well balanced aircraft. But if this was so easy to do, you wonder why Asobo didn't do it!

I don't blame the Asobo Team per sa for the debacle that MSFS 2020 has become for many users  - I think the Microsoft Corporation is solely responsible for this situation:  It's their baby and they call the shots, including a product that they knowingly chose to release prematurely.  I think back to all the thousands of simmers who signed-up and bought "2020" weeks before it was released, many believing it would it would be an amazing new sim right out of the box.  Granted, many aspects of it are indeed really and truly amazing.  But, many simmers are still left wanting some major fixes, or inclusion of missing features that should have been remedied long before August 18 (or should have been delayed 'till they were).  

I myself have not yet jumped into the 2020 fray - I'll  probably wait a few more months to get a new gaming rig, and then see how many "2020" bugs have been exterminated...