1 hour ago, FPStewy said:

Beta is a very good thing, beta means that the product is still being developed and it's not yet completed and the developers acknowledge this and it's showing respect to the user base. When PMDG or MSFS release a finish product, they are borderline consumer misleading when in reality it's obviously very much still an unfinished product or "beta".

With respect Stu,  I disagree. 

There is a line between valid critique and accusing just for the sake of it and that is often overstepped when it comes to this particular developer. There are points of critique I agree with as well, but I'm also with the other poster who pointed out the negativity on these forums, which is sometimes borderline mob mentality. Skimming through the forums I frequently stumble upon all kinds of attempts to have a go at them which range from exaggeration to nonsensical to outright made up and regardless of the validity of the claim there is always a whole group of people happy to support it. There is a part of the community which has a problem figuring out when critique is valid and voiced constructively and when it's not.

 

 

42 minutes ago, threegreen said:

There is a line between valid critique and accusing just for the sake of it and that is often overstepped when it comes to this particular developer. There are points of critique I agree with as well, but I'm also with the other poster who pointed out the negativity on these forums, which is sometimes borderline mob mentality. 

The harshest criticism seems to stem mostly from a perception that PMDG are acting as though they are the only high-end aircraft developer. A lot of people see FSLabs as producing higher quality content for the same price (when adding the cost of all three add-ons in the same aircraft family).

Additionally, some of PMDG's customer relations were not great for a long time (due to one specific individual).


I feel that some of the ire directed at PMDG for the 777 is completely warranted.

• Notably buggy release
• Underwhelming exterior sounds (despite an emphasis on the new sound system)
• No update (yet) to cockpit textures
• Fundamentally, the same aeroplane as the base pack (rather than the 747-8 expansion compared to the 747 QOTS II base)
• Yet, charging over 2.5 times the cost of the previous 777 expansion pack price for very few obvious improvements to show.

The delivery of the -200ER expansion is, IMO, not representative of the price being asked. Over 20 fixes arrived with the hotfix/update, with more still needed.

I can afford the -200ER, but don't feel like it's worth buying.
PMDG need to do some soul-searching/non-loyal customer research, if they want to do well when selling for MSFS.
 

1 hour ago, threegreen said:

There is a line between valid critique and accusing just for the sake of it and that is often overstepped when it comes to this particular developer. There are points of critique I agree with as well, but I'm also with the other poster who pointed out the negativity on these forums, which is sometimes borderline mob mentality. Skimming through the forums I frequently stumble upon all kinds of attempts to have a go at them which range from exaggeration to nonsensical to outright made up and regardless of the validity of the claim there is always a whole group of people happy to support it. There is a part of the community which has a problem figuring out when critique is valid and voiced constructively and when it's not.

 

 

A very interesting point and I agree to a certain degree.

 

Unfortunately, you refuse to understand that there are unsatisfied customers that will express their opinion views as there are a group of people happy to support a developer no matter what they do.

 

In our days' many developers put out software with major bugs are rising and people are fed up with it.

 

This developer apparently joined the club in the last few years with buggy software.

 

Lately, every product of theirs has brought in to the new versions known old bugs carried over from previous releases, or new bugs after release, plus the issues as silencing or blocking people on their forum for pointing out software-related items.

 

Silencing or blocking people on their forum for pointing out software-related items is actually a mob mentality and behavior.

 

I think that all this denial and arrogance of the developer will trigger the negativity you talking about.

 

I sought that we catch flies with honey, not with vinegar.

 

It is very unfortunate but they and you don't get it for some unknown reason.

 

I would like you to understand that I do appreciate very much the programmer's skills and I think very strongly that the software has lots of potentials but the person (s) making decisions and quality control person (s) needs to be trained for the good future of the company. It's not good at all right now.

2 hours ago, F737NG said:

The harshest criticism seems to stem mostly from a perception that PMDG are acting as though they are the only high-end aircraft developer. A lot of people see FSLabs as producing higher quality content for the same price (when adding the cost of all three add-ons in the same aircraft family).

Additionally, some of PMDG's customer relations were not great for a long time (due to one specific individual).


I feel that some of the ire directed at PMDG for the 777 is completely warranted.

• Notably buggy release
• Underwhelming exterior sounds (despite an emphasis on the new sound system)
• No update (yet) to cockpit textures
• Fundamentally, the same aeroplane as the base pack (rather than the 747-8 expansion compared to the 747 QOTS II base)
• Yet, charging over 2.5 times the cost of the previous 777 expansion pack price for very few obvious improvements to show.

The delivery of the -200ER expansion is, IMO, not representative of the price being asked. Over 20 fixes arrived with the hotfix/update, with more still needed.

I can afford the -200ER, but don't feel like it's worth buying.
PMDG need to do some soul-searching/non-loyal customer research, if they want to do well when selling for MSFS.
 

Your bullet points are on point. Fslabs and Leonardo maddog have each done things better than pmdg over the last couple years. And of course so has pmdg. But the value to cost of this rollout seems like a slip for them. 

6 hours ago, F737NG said:

PMDG need to do some soul-searching/non-loyal customer research, if they want to do well when selling for MSFS.

Right now on sim market the max is the best selling aircraft for msfs, at this point a port of the Rikooo 737 would probably be a best seller so I don't think there's going to much "soul-searching" going on.

Purchasing the 200ER extension is quite an innovation to me. Before that I would buy the product with the idea in mind that it will be as great as others from the same developer (instant buy without doubt). However, from now, I'd just chill and wait to see the reviews.

Not happy with this purchase at all, I have tried my best to fly several routes with new 777s (200ER/300ER), couldn't hand fly it happily, during climb or descend, as long as I release my control the planes started to go all over the place. Too sensitive and slushy.

I should have tested the base package before purchasing the 200ER extension, I was too rush.

Now all we can do is just wait and hope for a good customer service from PMDG. At the beginning of the release, I monitored closely their forum and was very unhappy to the way they treat the customers who reported errors (almost denying every single post). After the enormous reports they probably realized indeed something was wrong.

 

Edited March 5, 20215 yr by Hoang

I find the general criticism towards PMDG’s style of communication way overblown these days. The guy nobody liked left the company a couple of years ago and these days it’s... fine?

 

We get regular updates on the status of development which you can’t say in the case of FSLabs who sometimes go quiet for 3 months (in fact, Lefteris’ last update was in mid-December). Some of the PMDG devs are quite engaged.
The PMDG sound guy for example gave quite detailed replies to those giving feedback on the 777 sound, explaining what he’s doing and he’s been tweaking the sound constantly. That was some really good customer-dev interaction. 
 

I know PMDG are often not very liked on this forum and I share some of the criticism but on the whole I find FSLabs more arrogant than PMDG. And at least PMDG has never pulled the dodgy scandalous stuff that FSLabs has in the past (you all know what I’m referring to). FSLabs should never have gotten a pass for that. 
 

Having said that, I love my FSLabs, PMDG and Leonardo products. Wouldn’t wanna miss any of them. 

9 minutes ago, flycln said:

I find the general criticism towards PMDG’s style of communication way overblown these days. The guy nobody liked left the company a couple of years ago and these days it’s... fine?

 

We get regular updates on the status of development which you can’t say in the case of FSLabs who sometimes go quiet for 3 months (in fact, Lefteris’ last update was in mid-December). Some of the PMDG devs are quite engaged.
The PMDG sound guy for example gave quite detailed replies to those giving feedback on the 777 sound, explaining what he’s doing and he’s been tweaking the sound constantly. That was some really good customer-dev interaction. 
 

I know PMDG are often not very liked on this forum and I share some of the criticism but on the whole I find FSLabs more arrogant than PMDG. And at least PMDG has never pulled the dodgy scandalous stuff that FSLabs has in the past (you all know what I’m referring to). FSLabs should never have gotten a pass for that. 
 

Having said that, I love my FSLabs, PMDG and Leonardo products. Wouldn’t wanna miss any of them. 

I have reported "some" errors with the FSLAB products and of course, silence, has been like that for years. It's good, but it could be better if their support is on par with their quality.

I have no intention of purchasing the 777-200ER expansion pack (too expensive for me at the moment), and I also have no intention of updating the 200LR/F that is installed on my PC. If it ain't broke......

Edited March 5, 20215 yr by Christopher Low

20 hours ago, F737NG said:

I feel that some of the ire directed at PMDG for the 777 is completely warranted.

I wonder about how this release went myself, and I understand why people are unhappy about the price. My post earlier wasn't specifically targeted at this release though but at the PMDG sentiment around here in general.

I hope I am not too much off topic but I am thinking about the future of the PMDG 777.

There are of course are the fixes following the reports of the community, and the improvements already planned (LNAV...)

And there is also the upgrade of the virtual cockpit to bring the 777 to the current standard.

I wonder if :

1) The upgrade will be free for all 777 owners

2) All 777 owners will have to pay for the upgrade

3) The 777-200ER owners will be entitled to a free upgrade while the other will have to pay for the upgrade

Options 2 and 3 will mechanically make part of the population unhappy.

Tough business decision for RSR!

I think PMDG would do well to be a bit more transparent with its customers. The latest 777 update and 200ER release is extremely buggy to the point where it is almost unflyable. I asked in their forum for an update regarding a fix for the 777 pitch issues and didn't get an answer from anyone from the PMDG team. Just a simple "its currently wip" or "It's in beta testing" would do.     

10 minutes ago, james42 said:

I think PMDG would do well to be a bit more transparent with its customers. The latest 777 update and 200ER release is extremely buggy to the point where it is almost unflyable. I asked in their forum for an update regarding a fix for the 777 pitch issues and didn't get an answer from anyone from the PMDG team. Just a simple "its currently wip" or "It's in beta testing" would do.     

I can understand that they cannot reply individually and immediately to every posts.

Also some issues need further analysis (hence time) before they can give a firm answer (fix or not fix).

Let's remember that the update and 200ER were released only one week ago and that they released already a series of fixes very quickly through the OC.

Edited March 5, 20215 yr by Simicro

20 hours ago, killthespam said:

A very interesting point and I agree to a certain degree.

 

Unfortunately, you refuse to understand that there are unsatisfied customers that will express their opinion views as there are a group of people happy to support a developer no matter what they do.

 

Silencing or blocking people on their forum for pointing out software-related items is actually a mob mentality and behavior.

 

It is very unfortunate but they and you don't get it for some unknown reason.

I think you missed the point of my reply. I'll clarify.

I just said I agree with some points of criticism  (which is the more fitting word 🤪) myself, thus acknowledging that valid criticism exists and therefore unhappy customers who are rightly voicing their discontent. Which is why I have no idea why you're accusing me of refusing (= consciously) to understand that. By all means, do voice valid criticism.

This brings me to the point I'm making: the line between valid criticism and 'criticizing' just for the sake of it. There is the part of the community that voices discontent about specific things and not because of an agenda but because it's valid and comprehensible criticism and they do this in an honest way. Then there is a certain part of the community that apparently lost their sense of the above or never cared about it in the first place. And these forums definitely have their share of this type of sentiment. This is what I called out in my earlier post, not valid, comprehensible criticism.

There are usually plenty of posts here that twist, exaggerate or make stuff up to have a go at them and it's not just the occasional oddball you find in every place but for most of these posts it's raining upvotes and consensual replies and whether it actually makes sense to blame them in these cases doesn't seem to matter. This is what mob mentality means: jumping on the bandwagon following the popular narrative while losing sight of what's valid criticism and what's not. This is just annoying and not helping anyone.