I wanted to decouple this from the other thread, because it was all about ASOBO drama, and we really need a thread just about the NG3. So here's hoping we can change the dialogue!

Link: https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/158060-17jan22-hot-or-cold-take-your-pick-then-go-take-your-pic

Post:

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Captains,

We haven't given you much to look at other than the 737-700 in a standard passenger configuration, so I thought it might be nice to show you a few of the other configurations that you will be getting with your PMDG 737 for MSFS.

We shall split up a bit between hot and cold, just for fun.

DISCLAIMER: I am the world's worst screenshot taker... It is a holiday weekend here in the States and it is also Jason's anniversary, so I didn't have Vin or Jason to call on for professional help. Laugh if you must.

First up, we have the 737-700 BCF, sitting on a snow covered runway in Chicago. This model is based upon the specifications for the actual airplane, and gives you working cargo doors, both main deck and below deck cargo. With the ground equipment, you can correctly position the loader and you will also be able to explore the cargo main deck of the airplane if you choose. I am planning to feature a bit of that in an upcoming video presentation.

The winglet styles offered (on the normal pax body, the BCF and the BBJ) will mirror the options made available to purchasers in the market today. Personally I haven't caught the scimitar winglet bug, so I tend to set mine up with the regluar blended winglet you see here.

The BCF airplane comes with the proper changes to the flight deck, including main deck cargo fire detection/indication and suppression, as well as appropriate ground equipment for a cargo airplane.

(Someone will ask, so: The ground equipment options we provide are just that: Options. You can turn them on/off at your leisure.)

Next up with have the BBJ baking on the ramp in Beautiful Sunny Exuma, Bahamas. (A wonderful place if you ever get a chance to visit!)

The BBJ, just like it's passenger and BCF cousins comes with a full suite of ground vehicles, including a set of VIP suburbans to whisk your VIP passengers to and from the airplane in style. This airplane comes with it's own unique cabin, which has been upgraded rather dramatically to account for the increased texture overhead we get with MSFS. In addition, using the view tools you can get a nice walk-through effect in the cabin which we will showcase for you at some point here soon- I hope.

Along with the VIP interior, the BBJ comes with it's own installed mobile boarding stairs to door 1L (you can actually turn this option on for the other airplanes if you like, up to you!) or you can use the standard ground handling equipment to provide passenger access to the airplane.

This view angle gives you a great glimpse of the reflective qualities of the painted surfaces and how they reflect light. When viewing these airplanes from the outside while at cruise altitude, we are getting incredibly close to the point where it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between a well staged screen capture and a photograph. Obviously these two random screen grabs from me aren't well staged- but I think Jason and Vin could probably fool you if they took the time to set up the lighting.

Speaking of Jason: I was going to give you a few images of the upgraded interiors on all three airplanes, but I wanted to be sure Jason is okay with me doing that before we let you back there. We have long placed our entire focus on the cockpit, but with this product line we are adding a bit more attention to the cabin than we have traditionally. It won't be to the same degree of detail as the cockpits, obviously- but it is the start of us moving in the direction of high detail cabin interiors. It make take us some time to get all the way there- but hey- you have to start someplace.

Let's Talk About Pricing:
So one of the key components in the pending PMDG 737 for MSFS release process is that we are changing our traditional layout for how you purchase airplane addons from PMDG. In the past, we have marketed each airplane type with a base package, and then added airframes by releasing expansion packages. Effective with the 737 product line for MSFS, that paradigm will go away because we want to lower the bar of entry for folks who perhaps, just want one type of 737 and not ALL of them. If, for example, you wanted to fly the 700 series airplane in our historic product line, you would need to purchase our base package and then add the 600/700 expansion package to it. If you wanted to add the 700BCF, you'd also need to add that package, with each additional package giving you some airframes that perhaps you didn't want.

Effective with this new product line, we are going to break them into body types so that you can purchase just the body type you want. For example, our initial release will focus on the 700 series airframe. It will come with the 737-700 body in a couple of iterations and winglet options. It will also come with the 737-700BCF (also with winglet options) and of course the venerable BBJ with winglet options and the whole fuel tank configuration range.

Then we will offer a similar roundup for the 737-800 series. It will include the 800 (in various formats) the 800BCF and the BBJ2. We will then treat the 600 and 900s similarly, grouping nearly all of the possible NG dirvations together by body style and offering them individually rather than as a base-package/expansion package combination.

Why do this?

Easy. The MSFS market is an enormous marketplace, which we feel allows us to shift our product pricing point to make it far more approachable for far more users, because if all you really want is a 737-600 to fly your Janet flights out of KLAS to Area 51- we would like you to be able to make the decision to purchase just that airplane as it suits you. If you then joined a VA that operates some cool flights in the 800BCF, then you can come back for just the 800 series, and you will still have spent less than you would have under our old pricing.

Pricing points will be announced a bit later (they haven't been finalized, I'm not being cagey- i just really don't know!) as well as a bit more clarity on what airplanes will be included in each package. (There are a few oddballers such as fire-fighting airplanes, military derivatives, etc that we need to figure out how we would fit in... they won't likely be in the initial batches, but perhaps get added later as updates? we'll see...)

Overall, our goal is to make the product line more approachable to more users.

We anticipate about 6 weeks lag time between each release, with the 700 series being first. We haven't determined the final order for the remainder, as there are a few moving parts still to be nailed down. Once we have those sorted the release order will flow naturally from that. (We are leaning to the 800 because we know that is one you guys really want!)

Of course- the next and most important question everyone will ask: "What about the price credit from my NGXu purchase?" Yup- if you qualified for the promotional pricing back in late 2019, we still got you covered. You will still get the full dollar value of the promotional, nothing has changed there.

Okay- enough for tonight. After today's snow/ice storm I may be back

Screenshots:

Man I can't wait!

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by WestAir

In addition to this update on the pricing segmentation from Randazzo, Randazzo also clarified his comments about the issues with Asobo:

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Saygin- I think you miss the larger point. (perhaps intentionally?) I sing Asobo's praises nearly constantly. I have for some time now. We work with a handful of folks there on a broad range of issues all week long. As I have said 5,000 times in this forum, they are a big company and they have a very broad range of things on their plate. PMDG is not the most important agenda item they face every morning when they wake up. We ask for help- and on many items we get it. On this particular item- they have been unable to provide it. Unfortunately- this one item hangs up the 737 and makes us unable to move the product into testing, which means that each day we move our ETA out another day. I think you have misconstrued candor with "Crying" or "calling Asobo out." The folks we work with at Asobo are probably as sick of me asking about this item as we are of asking. One day, they will have enough free bandwidth work this through and tell us they agree with our assessment of what it will take to fix it, or they will tell us we are wrong and point out where we can change the product to flow around the problem. Either way- we need that day and our entire development agenda on three product lines is in limbo while we wait- so I'm sorry if my frustration shows sometimes. It has been a looooong process to get this far. We have been working around the blocker for long enough that work is slowing to a stop because we need this item cleared in order to continue. Oh- and lest you think my comment here is not news to them, I remind them we are waiting at the start of practically every week- including this one. Like I said: They are probably more sick of me asking that I am... There is a lot less drama in the world than you perceive, Saygin.

 

And this clarification from Randazzo:

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I appreciate the sentiment- but I don't think it is fair to say that Asobo is not supporting PMDG or 3rd party developers. They are.

Asobo is a very large company with a very big task before it. We are constantly feeding them a mix of questions, bug reports and requests for assistance understanding things that are not documented or insufficiently documented. We have a normal discourse of information back and forth. What is different about our development is that we are the most complicated and highly customized aircraft to be moved through the C++/WASM development process to date, so we are hitting things that other developers working with less heavily customized C++ projects or JS based projects are not.

One of those things is blocking the 737 from making forward progress, and has been for a while. Asobo has not had time to sit with us and go through this item to determine what it is or whether or not our assessment of it's impact is valid. Meanwhile we have spent the time chipping away at other areas around the blocker- in hopes that they will have the bandwidth to sit down with us and work out a solution, or provide some ideas that might be appropriate to try.

We are obviously, eagerly awaiting that opportunity, and I nag at them incessantly in hopes that one of these days they will reply with "yes- lets do that now." So far that hasn't happened.

So please don't construe my frustration with our inability to make progress as "Asobo being a bad-actor." Asobo is trying to support a couple hundred developers while maintaining their own development agenda.

TLDR: Asobo has been making changes for PMDG in the last year and a half so that PMDG can get their study level airliners into MSFS.  However, because of other priorities such as SU8 (and perhaps employees leaving for Christmas holidays), Asobo hasn't had a chance to sit down to discuss one particular problem with PMDG. Asobo will probably get to this problem once their plate clears up (ie. the release of SU8).

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by abrams_tank

It’s definitely a different way of selling the product, personally I don’t mind as I will have every variant, but what surprises me and peaks my interest is the “fire-fighting airplanes, military derivatives, etc” as only last month CMarkis replied saying PMDG don’t do visual only models anymore, in response to somebody asking if the NG3 would include the P-8, this begs the question, have they decided on a U-turn or have they somehow got the right licensing to do these other models

Sorry, as far as i can see this is another money grab opertunity.

He/they know full well they cannot charge the prices that they used in p3d but the obvious way round that is what they are planning. So instead of charging around 100$ for 2 variations of the hull that they know a lot of newcomers will probably shy away from, then they're going to try the tact of lets charge around 50$ for 1 hull type and get multiples of there off for each type.

So in theory they end up with even more cash for the same hull ie in p3d for example around 100$ for base package 2 hull types and the addon hulls about 40$ so 4 hulls.

Under this idea 4 hulls at  say 50$ each equals 200$, so more profit.

So for me, just be open and honest about the real reasons for changing the pricing structure

To quote  the dragons den tv program  "I'm out". In regards to pmdg in msfs.

I will stick with what i have in p3d  for serious simming, and let the xbox sim do it own thing and they can have their gravy train cash. But none of that cash will be from me other  than what i paid for when the sim was released.

 

 

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

Why do this?

So that no one notices at first glance that buying all variants will be way more expensive than it was in the past. 😉

Edit: Just for clarification: I just quoted @WestAir quoting Rob Randazzo. So while the above quote looks like it is WestAir saying this, it is just a quote of a quote.

 

Also  that Randazzo says that "if you qualified for the promotional pricing back in late 2019, we still got you covered. You will still get the full dollar value of the promotional, nothing has changed there."

is a way of disguising that you will propbably not get the same amount of variants for that money.

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by Farlis

2 minutes ago, mazelda said:

Sorry, as far as i can see this is another money grab opertunity.

We don't know if the cumulative MSFS price for the 737-600/700/800/900 will exceed the P3D price for those same airframes.

2 minutes ago, mazelda said:

Under this idea 4 hulls at  say 50$ each equals 200$, so more profit.

You're ignoring the other side of the coin: those who only want to fly the 737-800 can get it cheaper using this pay model than they can in P3D.

2 minutes ago, mazelda said:

So for me, just be open and honest about the real reasons for changing the pricing structure

The only way this is disingenuous is if Rob expected most customers to buy all the airframes. I don't think many of us are going to buy all 4 versions of the 737, and so most of us can actually expect to see a drastic discount compared to previous sims - not increase. The asteriks here is, again, we don't know what any of the prices will be.

2 minutes ago, mazelda said:

"I'm out". In regards to pmdg in msfs. I will stick with what i have in p3d for serious simming.

I'm not surprise your post ended this way. You opened with an assertion fallacy and argued on bad faith assumptions. There's really no need for that sort of behavior.

6 minutes ago, WestAir said:

We don't know if the cumulative MSFS price for the 737-600/700/800/900 will exceed the P3D price for those same airframes.

You're ignoring the other side of the coin: those who only want to fly the 737-800 can get it cheaper using this pay model than they can in P3D.

The only way this is disingenuous is if Rob expected most customers to buy all the airframes. I don't think many of us are going to buy all 4 versions of the 737, and so most of us can actually expect to see a drastic discount compared to previous sims - not increase. The asteriks here is, again, we don't know what any of the prices will be.

I'm not surprise your post ended this way. You opened with an assertion fallacy and argued on bad faith assumptions. There's really no need for that sort of behavior.

Yeah, I'm not buying all 4 airframes. Probably 1 airframe for me is enough. So any way that PMDG can lower the price for me, I'm happy.

I prefer the way PMDG is pricing this, because it makes it cheaper for people like me that only want 1 airframe.

I guess if you are planning to buy all 4 airframes, you spend more. In that case, if you plan to buy all 4 airframes, you should post in the PMDG forum and ask Randazzo if there can be a discount if people buy 2, 3, or 4 airframes.

3-2-1 And stage front the  constant whiner's. If your not happy, don't buy. I am more happy with this approach as you can select just the airframe you wish, instead of the whole package.

9 minutes ago, WestAir said:

I'm not surprise your post ended this way. You opened with an assertion fallacy and argued on bad faith assumptions. There's really no need for that sort of behavior.

I'm entitled to my opinion, so to say there's no need for that behavior is in itself poor behavior. I lost all faith in pmdg a while ago. If you do not like MY opinion then thats ok, i do not have a problem with that, but that does not mean i cannot give my opinion. If you don't like it fine but do not start lecturing me on behavior!

I think it’s fair that those who bought the 800/900 with the assumption the credit would apply to the same types. It is completely fair for people to be bothered if it plays out differently. We just don’t know yet 

I don't have a problem with this pricing plan. I've never flown the 600 or 700 versions, so I can do without those or the BBJ variant. That leaves me interested in the 800 and cargo variants. I already own the NGXu, so I should get at least most of one of those 2 variants for "free" which in my case would be the 800. If the cargo version isn't too expensive, I may add that one for giggles.

Sounds like they could be waiting a long, long time. Maybe it will never be released? Personally I'm not too bothered if the SDK doesn't allow them to get the toilet paper dispenser to work. Why not just get it released and patch in the missing feature later?

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by jarmstro

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

We anticipate about 6 weeks lag time between each release, with the 700 series being first. We haven't determined the final order for the remainder, as there are a few moving parts still to be nailed down. Once we have those sorted the release order will flow naturally from that. (We are leaning to the 800 because we know that is one you guys really want!)

So why not bring out the 800 first then? 
Can't wait six weeks, so have to buy the 700 as well .... 🙂

7 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Sounds like they could be waiting a long, long time. Maybe it will never be released? Personally I'm not to bothered if the SDK doesn't allow them to get the toilet paper dispenser to work. Why not just get it released and patch in the missing feature later?

We’ve never even seen a video of it flying. Who knows how major it is 

2 hours ago, WestAir said:

Of course- the next and most important question everyone will ask: "What about the price credit from my NGXu purchase?" Yup- if you qualified for the promotional pricing back in late 2019, we still got you covered. You will still get the full dollar value of the promotional, nothing has changed there.

That's good to hear. Wasn't sure about this.