2 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Yes as long as you STILL have the CONSUMER right to complain about such practices /policies to inform the non committed potential customer. 

You do, but not on someone's property.

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Matchstick

People get hung up on "rights" but you don't have many rights on any platform owned by someone else.  

Things owned by a corporation are controlled by that corporation.  That includes forums, social media platforms, etc.  Social media gets called the "digital public town square", but that's wrong.  It is not owned by the public/gov't, but private companies/individuals.  

This is a much bigger problem than many people realize and has major implications (social media can manipulate what we see and what we don't).  That's a rabbit hole too deep for this board, but just making a point that you can talk about "rights" all you want, it doesn't make it accurate.  

You pay to host something and you can make any rules you like, as long as there's nothing illegal going on or harassing others.  (even "legal" gets murky because which laws apply?  from which countries?)

This is also why there's 3rd party discussion sites just like this for just about everything.  

3 hours ago, Matchstick said:

You do, but not on someone's property.

 

1 hour ago, kerosene31 said:

This is a much bigger problem than many people realize and has major implications (social media can manipulate what we see and what we don't).  That's a rabbit hole too deep for this board, but just making a point that you can talk about "rights" all you want, it doesn't make it accurate.

People seem to be content to have their ACTUAL legal rights taken away by methods that would fail to stick in any court of law.

You buy ANY product regardless of digital or physical you have a LEGAL right to complain if it does not perform as advertised. This is NOT the same as saying the design or the product is defective unless it was hidden in advertising.

If Sim Stuff Corp sells me The Ultimate Addon for my sim and it is plainly NOT the ultimate in any way I can complain. If the ONLY way they allow me to complain is via a forum they host I can complain there. If they have a ticketed support system or phone line that is where you should complain as legally they gave you that route. If ONLY route is the public forum then you can legally complain there. If they have policies that have you censored/deleted on that forum they are denying you basic consumer rights (if no phone/email ticket system in place).

The Apple store may be owned by Apple but if my iPhone 99 ProMaxPremium is defective or has a battery draining design flaw I am legally allowed to go into that Apple shop and state my case. If I'm offensive or threatening then I can be ejected. If I am polite I can not legally be ejected for complaining about a product I purchased there. They either have to help me or provide head office info if I want to sue. 

Your OPINIONS are NOT legally protected, only your right to express them. Your right to complain about a product you PAID for is also protected and companies need to provide an avenue for you to do this. I cannot , as an Android user, walk into the Apple shop and whine about their products.

In forums anonymous complaints are rightly deleted by the hosts of forums. Registered owners DO have rights.

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by sloppysmusic
tippo

OK, let's get this very straight.
A website is someone private property, as a result they get to decide what you can and cannot do there. You do not have any rights to do anything there the owner doesn't want

END. OF. STORY.

That doesn't stop you making a complaint, it just means you might not be allowed to make it in public on their website. You're free to contact them in other ways, post the complaint somewhere else where the owner does allow that thing, even set up your own website but whether you are a customer or not a company gets to decide how their website may be used

To quote the MSFS Website ToS:

"However, Microsoft reserves the right to review materials posted to the Communication Services and to remove any materials in its sole discretion. Microsoft reserves the right to terminate your access to any or all of the Communication Services at any time, without notice, for any reason whatsoever."
(emphasis mine)

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Matchstick

1. The official forums don't tolerate unproductive commentary (for the most part) to include ad hominem attacks and inquisitions against people's character, which I see frequently here at Avsim. Questioning Jorg's aviation interests is an example of this. 

2. The official forums are not an "official place" where third parties can offer product support, so as/if a third party engages on an issue other than maybe just an acknowledgement, those discussions are usually locked and/or removed.

3. Regarding dissenting / negative commentary, observations (ideally constructive) are regularly featured, and can be seen in one example in a 100+ reply post about aircraft buyer's remorse: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/buyers-remorse-after-purchasing-planes/649262/124. 

4. I'm not knowledgeable enough on EULA and fair use limits when it comes to some of the more in-depth addons that modify sim performance, but it may be a conservative reading from platform owners who have to ensure that discussions don't rapidly tread into edge-case exploit territory. 

I must say I've seen much more "colorful" attitudes including many instances of what I would construe as cyber bullying from people here, versus there. (Usually leading to a lock after people insult each other for 20 pages here). While many of the members here are technically knowledgeable, what is tolerated here is significantly more than what is approved on the forums when it comes to unproductive discussion. 

Ideally the community supports one another's social media outlets (Avsim, Flightsim.com, etc) but I know in the past (I think this changed) there was a policy I believe here that disallowed the acknowledgement of other communities in the flight simulator social media world. 

No forum is perfect, but I think there has been some exaggeration going on regarding the official forums. 

3 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

People seem to be content to have their ACTUAL legal rights taken away by methods that would fail to stick in any court of law.

You buy ANY product regardless of digital or physical you have a LEGAL right to complain if it does not perform as advertised. This is NOT the same as saying the design or the product is defective unless it was hidden in advertising.

If Sim Stuff Corp sells me The Ultimate Addon for my sim and it is plainly NOT the ultimate in any way I can complain. If the ONLY way they allow me to complain is via a forum they host I can complain there. If they have a ticketed support system or phone line that is where you should complain as legally they gave you that route.

You are confusing a few things.  We're not saying you can't complain, we're just saying they can shut down your complaints there.  

There's an Asobo ticketing system to contact.  Also an e-mail.  

https://www.asobostudio.com/games/microsoft-flight-simulator#:~:text=If nothing solve your problem,%40flightsimulator.zendesk.com.

 If nothing solve your problem, please send a ticket to our mates from the support team: [email protected].

 

 

3 minutes ago, kerosene31 said:

You are confusing a few things.  We're not saying you can't complain, we're just saying they can shut down your complaints there. 

Thanks but I'm not confused! I was talking to people who tut-tut on this forum (and others) to those who dare to complain on official sites asserting they deserved to be shut down.

The bigger the product the smaller the consumer sadly.

7 hours ago, Krakin said:

I hit the link you posted but it did not take me to your comment. What did you actually say?

It was deleted since I posted the link.

I'm just amazed people are defending these kind of draconian actions. We paid for a product and have the right to inquire and raise concerns about the issues and direction of it on the official forums.

40 minutes ago, francobfort said:

It was deleted since I posted the link.

I'm just amazed people are defending these kind of draconian actions. We paid for a product and have the right to inquire and raise concerns about the issues and direction of it on the official forums.

It may be the aggressive and impolite tone of the question which is the issue.

Rephrased, perhaps asking broadly "Can Jorg outline his aviation-specific background and experience level, to include any licenses he has, or broader familiarity with aircraft systems, what aircraft eras/ages he's most interested in, etc and how he applies that familiarity in his design direction?" "Additionally, do they plan on doing an interview catered toward a flight sim audience that consists of long-time users, and not those new to the program or flight simulation?" 

Asking a lead of a program "if he even cares" generally won't lend itself to a courteous response. 

Note: Jorg previously represented that one of his philosophies when it comes to Local Legends and Famous Flyers, if I understand correctly, was to memorialize these aircraft in the sim when there are no flying examples left in the world. That lends itself to older examples. 

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by STK

41 minutes ago, francobfort said:

It was deleted since I posted the link.

I'm just amazed people are defending these kind of draconian actions. We paid for a product and have the right to inquire and raise concerns about the issues and direction of it on the official forums.

Sounds pretty sarcastic to me considering Jorg has presented himself to the general public on a monthly basis and has been to now two Flightsim Expo's (Which is generally a concentration of flightsim enthusiast and developers) and was open to answering questions there as well.

Not sure what angle you were trying at with that line of questioning.

 

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Maxis

11 minutes ago, Maxis said:

Sounds pretty sarcastic to me considering Jorg has presented himself to the general public on a monthly basis and has been to now two Flightsim Expo's (Which is generally a concentration of flightsim enthusiast and developers) and was open to answering questions there as well.

Not sure what angle you were trying at with that line of questioning.

Not to mention the fact that it was Jorg of all people who decided we should all have a high quality flight planner and charts by default. I don't care if the guy never sat on a plane, @francobfortyou were out of pocket and the warning you got was deserved.

The responses were expected. I'm not here to seek advice on how I should speak towards leaders or my tone or justification for the actions of the MSFS team.

When you wonder if the director of a flight sim has no piloting experience it makes sense that they would rather concentrate on other stuff like taking photos of deer and get annoyed when they have to talk about clouds and weather. Seb is the one always talking like Austin from XP, but even he has to follow design choices set by Jorg.

1 hour ago, francobfort said:

When you wonder if the director of a flight sim has no piloting experience it makes sense that they would rather concentrate on other stuff like taking photos of deer and get annoyed when they have to talk about clouds and weather. Seb is the one always talking like Austin from XP, but even he has to follow design choices set by Jorg.

Six posts on this forum, all about censorship. Sounds to me like you have an axe to grind, and nothing much else going on.

6 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

If Sim Stuff Corp sells me The Ultimate Addon for my sim and it is plainly NOT the ultimate in any way I can complain.

 

You sure can.

Quote

If the ONLY way they allow me to complain is via a forum they host I can complain there.

Nope. You can complain here as long as the mods let you. You can complain on Reddit or any number of other internet fora that let you. You can complain to their customer service department. You can complain via registered letter. You can complain to a judge if you want to sue them. You can make a website and write your complaints there. You can buy an ad in the newspaper and complain in it if you want.

A private company does not have to let you complain at all, publicly or privately. Just as you have a constitutionally protected right to free expression, so do they, and if they choose to express themselves by refusing to listen to you, that's their right. As long as there is a method by which you can obtain a refund if your situation warrants it, that's as far as they have to go.

 

Quote

The Apple store may be owned by Apple but if my iPhone 99 ProMaxPremium is defective or has a battery draining design flaw I am legally allowed to go into that Apple shop and state my case.

You are legally allowed to enter the Apple store unless and until the proprietor asks you to leave. Then you have to leave, even if you still have complaining to do. You have no legal right to do anything on any private property unless the owner of that property says it's OK.

Quote

If I am polite I can not legally be ejected for complaining about a product I purchased there.

I am not a lawyer, but I work with them regularly, and they would all tell you "for your own good, do not try to test this theory." You absolutely can be legally ejected for any reason other than protected-class status. In other words, they can't eject you because of your race, sexuality, etc. But they can eject you because you don't have a shirt or shoes, or because they don't like your shirt or shoes, or they don't want to listen to you, or they think your hairstyle is dumb, or just for the pure fun of it. Just as you have the right to tell anyone to leave your home for any reason, they have the right to do the same on their property.

Quote

Your right to complain about a product you PAID for is also protected and companies need to provide an avenue for you to do this.

Companies need to sell you a product that works or at least mostly works as advertised. They can't sell you an iPhone and send you home with a brick instead. They can't sell you a broken iPhone unless they disclose that it's broken and explicitly disclaim any implied warranties of merchantability. They can't sell you something that is unfit for its intended purpose. I.e., if you buy a lamp that does not turn on, you can return it because it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, but that doesn't mean you get to stand in the lamp store telling everyone how much their products suck.

They generally have to issue you a refund if the product they sold you does not perform as it's supposed to. But that's all they have to do. They do not have to listen to you complain about it. They don't have to provide you a platform so you can complain about it to others. They do not have to let you hang out on their property while you complain about it.