On 8/25/2024 at 12:26 PM, Amon1973 said:

£120 is small fraction of my total spend.

Granted the cost, in money, is not much, but for me, this has never been the drawback.

It is the considerable investment in TIME that is required to fix, test, re-test and re-fix the sim itself  versus the time of actually simulating flight. Literally hundreds of hours of my time spent solving issue after issue with this sim.  A few good questions to ask ourselves --and demand  thoughtful answers to-- are these: 

> What percent of my "free time" has been spent in fixing (or trying to fix) the sim rather than flying in it? ... Compared to other sims? 

> Do I enjoy this beta work?

> In terms of time spent, has FS2020 been more of a flight simulator or a Software Development Simulator for me?

> Given the recent history with Asobo and the eternal vagueness and ambiguity of its public statements, what can we realistically expect from them in the future?

I'll buy FS2024 if and when the community has reported that it is a full- featured, and fully operational flight simulator...on that day.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

I'll buy FS2024 if and when the community has reported that it is a full- featured, and fully operational flight simulator

It might take a while for you to get it then. You know how hard to satisfy some of us can be, lol

11 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

Granted the cost, in money, is not much, but for me, this has never been the drawback.

It is the considerable investment in TIME that is required to fix, test, re-test and re-fix the sim itself  versus the time of actually simulating flight. Literally hundreds of hours of my time spent solving issue after issue with this sim.  A few good questions to ask ourselves --and demand  thoughtful answers to-- are these: 

> What percent of my "free time" has been spent in fixing (or trying to fix) the sim rather than flying in it? ... Compared to other sims? 

> Do I enjoy this beta work?

> In terms of time spent, has FS2020 been more of a flight simulator or a Software Development Simulator for me?

> Given the recent history with Asobo and the eternal vagueness and ambiguity of its public statements, what can we realistically expect from them in the future?

I'll buy FS2024 if and when the community has reported that it is a full- featured, and fully operational flight simulator...on that day.

What in the world is going on with your sim that you've spent this much time on it?

I've had 2020 since literally Day One.

Other than just a couple problems in the very early days with updates stuck on downloading I haven't had any issues.

I have a TON of both freeware and payware aircraft and scenery add-ons, etc.

The only thing I spend any time on is customized HOTAS profiles & Sensitivities. But that's a once and done thing for each addon.

It will be lack of support for 2020 (add-ons in particular) that will push me to 2024.

Same, I've had 2020 since a couple of weeks before day one and the biggest issue I had was a few weeks ago having to clean up all of my add-on. It took a few hours because I had WAY too much stuff installed, but that's nothing compared to the several hundreds of hours of fun it provided me with. 

Someone who declares having spent "hundrededs" of hours solving issues tells me one of two things.

1: they have a penchant for extreme hyperbole.

2: they have an underlying problem with their hardware/software unrelated to the sim. 

Edited August 28, 20241 yr by Abriael

18 hours ago, UAL4life said:

Im bracing myself and not looking forward to having to buy all the same addons that I had already purchased for 2020, again. (I’m very skeptical that it will be plug & play for the old addons).

The thing to keep in mind is that v2024 is an evolutionary upgrade.

And from what I've heard Jorge and Seb say, they've designed the new features in such a way that most devs will be able to decide if they want to support them or not. I.e., broken add-ons shouldn't be a thing.

I just went through it with X-Plane 12. The change from v11 to V12 was substantial and required a significant amount of dev work for most add-ons.

Yet the vast majority of add-ons were updated for free.

A few had very small fees for noticeable upgrades.

And IIRC, only one charged full price for V12. And that was due to a full re-factoring of the add-on to take advantage of all the new v12 features. And I paid it because the result was just so much better than it had been before.

I actually had a better experience with the various versions of P3D. The only upgrade fees were voluntary, and were for two add-ons to add PBR to the model.

So while we can't say for sure, I believe your concerns of having to re-purchase all your add-ons simply isn't going to come true.

11 minutes ago, Abriael said:

Lo mismo, tengo 2020 desde un par de semanas antes del primer día y el mayor problema que tuve fue hace unas semanas cuando tuve que limpiar todos mis complementos. Me llevó algunas horas porque tenía DEMASIADAS cosas instaladas, pero eso no es nada comparado con los cientos de horas de diversión que me proporcionó. 

Alguien que declara haber pasado "cientos" de horas resolviendo problemas me dice una de dos cosas.

1: Tienen una tendencia a la hipérbole extrema .

2: tienen un problema subyacente con su hardware/software no relacionado con la simulación. 

Don't talk nonsense please if you have followed the game and these forums you know that MFS is a real lottery there are people who have never had problems but most of us have suffered bugs, some of us have suffered a lot of bugs even with the latest patches, just because you have not had problems does not mean that the rest of the world is the same.

2 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

What in the world is going on with your sim that you've spent this much time on it?

If you review the hundreds of posts describing new problems that accompany each new "update," and the reports of how much time is being wasted by them, you might be less surprised.

I'm glad you mentioned hardware profiles as they are a prime example of what I am referring to.  More than a few users know how it feels to spend hours programming each plane's controls only to have them wiped out yet again by an "update" that is supposed to improve something.

We then will hear from Jorg something like this:  "We are ...perhaps...thinking ..of "looking into this".. right after we have improved the waves in the Indian Ocean---but don't hold me to that."

I'm simply suggesting that Asobo prioritize those problems that are wasting the most of their customer's time.

What Asobo doesn't seem to realize is that most people value their free time far, far more than their money.

Time, not money, is what your life is made of.

 

2 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

I'm simply suggesting that Asobo prioritize those problems that are wasting the most of their customer's time.

They are. What you may not be realizing is that your personal problems are not what is affecting "most of their customers" time. 

They have telemetry to identify the major issues. Hundreds of thousands of simmers are enjoying the sim without experiencing the issues you allege. 

Edited August 28, 20241 yr by Abriael

14 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

If you review the hundreds of posts describing new problems that accompany each new "update," and the reports of how much time is being wasted by them, you might be less surprised.

I'm glad you mentioned hardware profiles as they are a prime example of what I am referring to.  More than a few users know how it feels to spend hours programming each plane's controls only to have them wiped out yet again by an "update" that is supposed to improve something.

We then will hear from Jorg something like this:  "We are ...perhaps...thinking ..of "looking into this".. right after we have improved the waves in the Indian Ocean---but don't hold me to that."

I'm simply suggesting that Asobo prioritize those problems that are wasting the most of their customer's time.

What Asobo doesn't seem to realize is that most people value their free time far, far more than their money.

Time, not money, is what your life is made of.

 

Hundreds of posts out of millions of users, as per the internet for decades now gamers will generally rant & rave than praise & tell you about it. Sure I agree totally that some updates have been poor, bugs & issues have arisen, the persistent server issues are incredibly annoying and the Q&As can be painful with the responses Jorg, Seb & Martial give us.

But I'm not buying you've spent "hundreds" of hours fixing issues, if you have then I wonder why you carried on wasting your time. Yep I also see bugs every flight from years ago, introduced by Asobo, yes I've spent some time getting workarounds to work due to Asobos failings but in 4 years it's nowhere near 100 hours let alone "hundreds" and I use VR which is known to be tougher to get working overall than pancake.

At the end of the day, through it's successes and faults, this Sim has been revolutionary. It's a constantly evolving title, that can mean it feels like a Beta more often than not and it's highly debatable whether MSFS2024 will be much different in that respect. Could it be better? Undoubtedly yes, is it amazing at times? undoubtedly yes, can it be frustrating? undoubtedly yes.

7 minutes ago, MarcG said:

But I'm not buying you've spent "hundreds" of hours fixing issues

Take, for example, when Asobo's suggestion begins with these words:

"1. Re-install Windows..."

How many of those times do you think you need to add up to 100 hours?

How many times have you sat down to fly and spent the next two nights or an entire weekend "troubleshooting" instead?

Not buying it...really?

58 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

If you review the hundreds of posts describing new problems that accompany each new "update," and the reports of how much time is being wasted by them, you might be less surprised.

I'm glad you mentioned hardware profiles as they are a prime example of what I am referring to.  More than a few users know how it feels to spend hours programming each plane's controls only to have them wiped out yet again by an "update" that is supposed to improve something.

We then will hear from Jorg something like this:  "We are ...perhaps...thinking ..of "looking into this".. right after we have improved the waves in the Indian Ocean---but don't hold me to that."

I'm simply suggesting that Asobo prioritize those problems that are wasting the most of their customer's time.

What Asobo doesn't seem to realize is that most people value their free time far, far more than their money.

Time, not money, is what your life is made of.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I haven't had any of these issues...? I fly in the sim at least 2 times a week and I haven't had a technical issue that requires intervention in about 3 years.

The custom hardware profiles are necessary in ALL the sims I have. The only annoyance in MSFS is that the sim doesn't auto sense the selected addon and change to the matching profile as the others do. But that's a minor part of "pre-flight" activities, and all I have to do is select the relevant profile for joystick, throttle & rudder pedals. Takes way less time than flight planning, etc.

I have a "generic" profile for each class of aircraft (e.g., piston single, helicopter, jetliner, etc.) and usually that suffices. There are a few where I do break out one for an individual addon due to an extra control, or an especially sensitive axis, etc. But again, it's one and done for the addon.

So i'm entirely unsure why your particular experience is so poor when in my experience MSFS has been just as trouble free, reliable and stable as XP, and far more reliable and stable than P3D

p.s.: I've NEVER had a custom profile get wiped out or even altered.

Edited August 28, 20241 yr by UrgentSiesta
2nd point

5 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

Take, for example, when Asobo's suggestion begins with these words:

"1. Re-install Windows..."

How many of those times do you think you need to add up to 100 hours?

How many times have you sat down to fly and spent the next two nights or an entire weekend "troubleshooting" instead?

Not buying it...really?

I'm still running the same Windows install on a 5 year old computer.

With multiple flight sims and dozens of addons per sim.

A suite of hardware accessories.

All the usual security systems.

Regularly updated & maintained as any Windows computer should be, etc.

The only thing that "wastes" my time is waiting for any of the sims to load into a flyable state.

21 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

Take, for example, when Asobo's suggestion begins with these words:

"1. Re-install Windows..."

How many of those times do you think you need to add up to 100 hours?

How many times have you sat down to fly and spent the next two nights or an entire weekend "troubleshooting" instead?

Not buying it...really?

Why are you reinstalling Windows because of MSFS?  How long does that really take, 1 hour, 3 hours? So to do it "hundreds" of hours why are you reinstalling Windows 30+ times at least!? That makes zero sense.

Edited August 28, 20241 yr by MarcG

5 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

Thanks for confirmation 😉👍

You have to know, I'm a mechanical engineer and understand how forces (whether aerodynamic or mechanical) act on bodies (whether aeroplanes or other bodies).
Unlike some other people, I don't blindly follow any dogmas or marketing gibberish, be it from Austin, MS/Asobo or iniBuilds, but get to the bottom of things. The results of this: my videos - which BTW no one has yet refuted.

If even Krakin writes ...

... then there must be some truth to it 😁.
 

 

It was actually sarcasm. I forgot to put the /s. 😅