11 hours ago, robert young said:

Ah, that question again (same happened with fs2020). Imagine you are an instructor and sitting next to a student pulling and pushing on controls. You can learn a lot by watching the inputs and seeing the aircraft reactions. Actually you almost do not have to even see the inputs. I've been working on flight models professionally for near on 30 years and I can easily spot if they are off. 

Rob I would disagree with you on this observation. By touching controls and follow instructor lead  - yes, but not by watching. You would be surprise that even private pilots don't know  where controls are during flight review. Especially when people demonstrate steep turns and they actually move yoke opposite direction passed 35 degree but argue they never do because they don't register it.

I own 2024 and tried several aircraft. They are all vary. Some twitchy on controls just like you stated some are not. All I can tell you not all aircraft are up to the same level for sure at the moment

53 minutes ago, turbomax said:

I agree.

so far I have flown these new default aircraft: Cessna 404 Titan, B737 Max, KingAir C90 and found them all very "plausible" and stable (I am not type rated nor have piloted any of these myself).

 

40 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

and yet there's a bunch of other reviews from real pilots saying the aircraft are great. Including pilots who fly those specific aircraft.

Indeed.. and these are all based on *default* aircraft. With payware aircraft from the well known renowned aircraft devs the flight dynamics fidelity will be even better. Already with MSFS 2020 these 3rd party devs were able to do great work despite the FDE and aircraft development tools there not being as capable as 2024, so would assume they're going to be able to do good things with 2024. Especially those who're employing CFD tech in their FMs.
 

Edited November 22, 20241 yr by lwt1971

12 hours ago, robert young said:

The default aircraft in FS2020 eventually allowed the user to adjust the flight model by getting rid of the sim objects folder encryption in response to many requests.  Are the default FS2024 aircraft like the C172 editable flight model wise? It looks to me from early YouTube videos that many of the aircraft demonstrate (yet again) twitchiness in control, particularly yaw/steering on the ground and way too twitchy in pitch.

Great to see you present and I hope doing better.   

My recommendation to all is to make each and every addon aircraft purchase from sources other than the Marketplace so they will be installed locally and hopefully able to accept customization.  Even then I have already run into the issue I posted yesterday where MSFS 2024 has hijacked coded livery tail numbers, replacing them with strange random tail numbers.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/654740-option-to-suppress-msfs-2024s-own-tail-numbers/#comment-5242634

We are more than just a mass of consumers.  Many of us are skilled, trained, and knowledgeable enthusiasts. 

11 hours ago, eslader said:

I'm not sure if you realize who this guy is but um..

“Past performance is no guarantee of future results…” just saying.

And an “appeal to authority” is a logical fallacy.

I used  the OP’s mod for the G36 early in MSFS 2020, but with time and improvements to the default I did without it. Yes, the mod was/is better but only by a margin so slight that to me it was not warranted.

I don’t mean any disrespect to someone that is well respected in the community, and by appearances is having some health issues, but the proof is in what each experience in the game/sim. So, not even having tried it makes for a rightful question of the conclusion, no?

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

I own 2024 and tried several aircraft. They are all vary. Some twitchy on controls just like you stated some are not. All I can tell you not all aircraft are up to the same level for sure at the moment

That in my estimation is exactly what Rob was alluding to and longing for a method to adjust.

12 hours ago, robert young said:

I see people using very small stick movement for exaggerated responses, twitchiness in pitch and ridiculously over sensitive yaw on the ground. The "improper" controller config argument was used initially in FS2020 also but that didn't wash. But at least it was fixable because the FS2020 default flight models were unencrypted.

Agreed. This is exactly what I'm experiencing in FS2024. All the GA planes (haven't tried any huge planes yet) I've flown so far feel totally arcade and toy-like because of this instant, quick response in every flight control input.

I agree that a significant strength of 2020 was the ability to mod and hope this is not all but removed. I see TO has said it is not possible to customize liveries any longer.

8 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

Rob I would disagree with you on this observation. By touching controls and follow instructor lead  - yes, but not by watching. You would be surprise that even private pilots don't know  where controls are during flight review. Especially when people demonstrate steep turns and they actually move yoke opposite direction passed 35 degree but argue they never do because they don't register it.

I own 2024 and tried several aircraft. They are all vary. Some twitchy on controls just like you stated some are not. All I can tell you not all aircraft are up to the same level for sure at the moment

Sorry to disagree, but it depends what you are watching. As I always say, most aircraft, from airliners to pretty small GA types, should have very good pitch stability even in somewhat turbulent air and remarkably good all round stability in still air. It doesn't really matter how much input there is to a trained eye as you can see the way even quite small inputs trigger odd behaviour. 

The biggest giveaway is the "bounce" in pitch - for example when you are flaring for a landing no aircraft, however small, should be yo-yoing up and down in pitch. It is not so much the amount of movement, but the oscillations in pitch that are a sign of bad flight modelling. This is by the way quite different from pilot induced oscillation which is a completely separate issue.

As you are probably aware I've been doing this stuff for many years and I can tell very quickly when a flight model is a dud by looking carefully at the after-input reaction rather the input itself. 

 

19 hours ago, robert young said:

Anyway, whatever we might disagree on, my question was whether the f/ms were editable and apparently they are not. 

Not yet, at least.  The stated intent is to allow us to download the aircraft we fly a lot, to our PC.

As Ryan said... At that time, we will find out if edits are possible.

19 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

I don't have 2024 myself yet, so all I can go by are various users including actual IRL pilots and experts opinions (who've actually flown in the sim) so far about MSFS 2024

With that in mind, you should be careful about opinioning about Rob Young's observations..

Rob produced a lovely G36 Turbo mod in 2020, which I still fly to this day. 🙂

I sure hope Robert has access to tweak some of these planes because the work he has done previously was really exceptional. Glad you are doing a bit better!

20 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

With that in mind, you should be careful about opinioning about Rob Young's observations..

Please read my earlier response below, not sure why it's so hard to understand 🙂  ... I am not forming or stating any opinions of my own about MSFS 2024 flight dynamics, I was just compiling others' opinions who have actually used MSFS 2024 (and I was doing that precisely since I will only be getting the sim later). And yes those opinions I value more, especially expert IRL pilots in that group, than anyone opining by watching others play the sim on youtube, regardless of their expertise 🤷‍♂️.. and no I don't need to be careful about this regardless of *who* it is, sorry.

In any case, I did earlier add both Robert's and LRBS's observations/opinions to my compilation thread of opinions 🙂

 

 

Edited November 22, 20241 yr by lwt1971

54 minutes ago, robert young said:

Sorry to disagree, but it depends what you are watching. As I always say, most aircraft, from airliners to pretty small GA types, should have very good pitch stability even in somewhat turbulent air and remarkably good all round stability in still air. It doesn't really matter how much input there is to a trained eye as you can see the way even quite small inputs trigger odd behaviour. 

The biggest giveaway is the "bounce" in pitch - for example when you are flaring for a landing no aircraft, however small, should be yo-yoing up and down in pitch. It is not so much the amount of movement, but the oscillations in pitch that are a sign of bad flight modelling. This is by the way quite different from pilot induced oscillation which is a completely separate issue.

As you are probably aware I've been doing this stuff for many years and I can tell very quickly when a flight model is a dud by looking carefully at the after-input reaction rather the input itself. 

 

Rob you'd be surprise how many GA aircraft IRL are actually pitch sensitive ( Bonza is one of them coming to mind). You don't see those pitch oscillation IRL  for two reasons:  control pressure, and pilot proficiency.

Control pressure is impossible  to replicate with game joystick . I know some developer tweak control to have delay response that mimic real life forces . Some folks tweak based  for example RL experience adjust sensitivity of controls to ones liking.

During landing reduce airflow easy up control pressure and decreases control efficiency, that why we see dramatic control movement say in 172 or PA28. Less in Mooney and Bonanza. Again I don't know how is it possible to replicate in sim. Even FAA certified sim instructors use to telling me "don't worry about landing, we won't judge you for that" 

Pilot proficiency: more or less proficient pilot is not flying by jerking yoke up and down instead pilot: power, pitch, trim (order can change depending on aircraft profile) 

Lets take for example bellowed 172 approach to landing . You trim controls for stable approach airspeed 60-65 kts with full flaps down . With calm winds she should fly perfectly stable  with tiny control and power adjustment (given correct throttle friction ) . Now you come to round up. One thing you immediately notice that raising will cause control pressure. There are two ways, you can muscle it (which will be equal to low sensitivity in the sim) or you can do three spins on elevator trim (nose up). Bothe cases 172 would nicely settle first on mains. There fun clubs for both methods - whichever works for one is ok.

With over 20+ yeas of flying, instruction and owning  I fly in sim just like I do just IRL. I don't jerk controls, and I have no idea how sensitive they are because I use power, pitch and trim. I'm mainly focusing attitude, bank, and speed . Throttle, yoke, pedals and trim are just tools to achieve pitch, bank and speed. It's automatic process and adjustment take little time for me because I flew a lot different type of GA airplanes in IRL.

Finally I want to tell you why your observation of control deflection can fool you! Here is a short story: I used to own airplane and she flown OK in my opinion . I mostly her it for instrument flying. One time I  borrowed my airplane to my friend who is retired airline pilot and former Vietnam Veteran Air Force pilot. After flight I asked him how did my airplane flew? He replied "great but controls are stiff like in O2 I flew in Vietnam". Puzzled with his response I flew my airplane myself pulling, pushing, banking . I didn't find anything serious. Yes may be little bit stiff but ok with me. However, it still bothered me so next day I took airplane to my mechanic. Long story short mechanic discovered that my airplane was not rigged correctly! The irony my friend with 50+ years of experience spot it right away. Talking about experience that you can't buy in the bank LOL

So consider this each! GA airplane will feel and fly based on how it rigged, how prop is serviced, and how cylinder compression allow. There are a lot other tiny beats and pieces. That why Scott from A2A prefer to reproduce particular airplane he can get access to or  he owns. That is the best deal to make airplane realistic. But his Comanche is still not going to be exactly the same I flew; however, still very close. 

P.S. By the way when you do control check in 172 yoke will deflect 90 degrees left and right, but Mooney M20J not!  if you observe both airplanes in slow flight you be confused how M20J control vs defection ratio is different from 172. If you haven't flown both it will be misleading to observe and understand what is going on

17 hours ago, LRBS said:

Unfortunately, this gentleman, lwt1971, sometimes is very unprofessional.

Now hold on just a darn minute! @lwt1971 dude! You get paid to talk about flight sims on this forum???? I haven't gotten one cent!

Edited November 23, 20241 yr by Krakin

2 hours ago, Krakin said:

Now hold on just a darn minute! @lwt1971 dude! You get paid to talk about flight sims on this forum???? I haven't gotten one cent!

Sometimes it makes me wonder. 🙄 but carry on though.