More right or more wrong, I don't know. But I do know that the GA planes in 2024 are far more easy to control on the ground and in the air. On all my flights. They also are more "alive", not on rails, but for instance adjusting power and trim is way more easier to do coming in for a landing, etc. in 2024. The planes seem more natural, fluid, and easy to fly.

On 11/21/2024 at 3:13 PM, robert young said:

many of the aircraft demonstrate (yet again) twitchiness in control, particularly yaw/steering on the ground and way too twitchy in pitch.

Absolutely correct, and as you observed, the rudder sensitivity is higher than it is in v2020. Pitch sensitivity seems about the same, depending on the addon (the Super Hornet is particularly egregious with pitch sensitivity and uncommanded oscillations).

That's why I use custom curve/saturation profiles for pretty much every single addon in every single sim.

The only time anyone wouldn't need one is if they're using a full size set more or less matched to the addon, with force feedback for good measure.

Edited November 23, 20241 yr by UrgentSiesta

9 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

The only time anyone wouldn't need one is if they're using a full size set more or less matched to the addon, with force feedback for good measure.

I was looking up flight sim yokes after reading through this thread, and I was surprised even some of the most expensive yokes usually only offer 160mm of elevator travel. Control curves are the only solution for a lot of aircraft. I get that it takes up a lot of desk space for full travel, but the trusty ol' CH Product's yoke had a bit of a solution for that: just have the shaft stick out the back and hope there isn't a coffee mug sitting behind it!

14 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

Rob you'd be surprise how many GA aircraft IRL are actually pitch sensitive ( Bonza is one of them coming to mind). You don't see those pitch oscillation IRL  for two reasons:  control pressure, and pilot proficiency.

Control pressure is impossible  to replicate with game joystick . I know some developer tweak control to have delay response that mimic real life forces . Some folks tweak based  for example RL experience adjust sensitivity of controls to ones liking.

During landing reduce airflow easy up control pressure and decreases control efficiency, that why we see dramatic control movement say in 172 or PA28. Less in Mooney and Bonanza. Again I don't know how is it possible to replicate in sim. Even FAA certified sim instructors use to telling me "don't worry about landing, we won't judge you for that" 

Pilot proficiency: more or less proficient pilot is not flying by jerking yoke up and down instead pilot: power, pitch, trim (order can change depending on aircraft profile) 

Lets take for example bellowed 172 approach to landing . You trim controls for stable approach airspeed 60-65 kts with full flaps down . With calm winds she should fly perfectly stable  with tiny control and power adjustment (given correct throttle friction ) . Now you come to round up. One thing you immediately notice that raising will cause control pressure. There are two ways, you can muscle it (which will be equal to low sensitivity in the sim) or you can do three spins on elevator trim (nose up). Bothe cases 172 would nicely settle first on mains. There fun clubs for both methods - whichever works for one is ok.

With over 20+ yeas of flying, instruction and owning  I fly in sim just like I do just IRL. I don't jerk controls, and I have no idea how sensitive they are because I use power, pitch and trim. I'm mainly focusing attitude, bank, and speed . Throttle, yoke, pedals and trim are just tools to achieve pitch, bank and speed. It's automatic process and adjustment take little time for me because I flew a lot different type of GA airplanes in IRL.

Sometimes in a sim you have to substitute control movement span for pressure/resistance, as nearly everyone flies sims without force feedback. But you write as though I've never actually flown. I got my PPL in 1973!  Since then I've flown a very wide range of GA aircraft so I do know how they feel. I also flew aerobatics and was a keen glider pilot.  I do know how these things work. As I mentioned earlier it is not so much pitch sensitivity as how that manifests itself.

In FS2020 and FS2024 many GA and other aircraft exhibit very poor inertia but worse still behave like a bouncing spring in pitch. It is not per se the pitch sensitivity that is the problem but the yo-yo/bobbing up and down effect which is grossly exaggerated in both sims.

7 minutes ago, robert young said:

Sometimes in a sim you have to substitute control movement span for pressure/resistance, as nearly everyone flies sims without force feedback. But you write as though I've never actually flown. I got my PPL in 1973!  Since then I've flown a very wide range of GA aircraft so I do know how they feel. I also flew aerobatics and was a keen glider pilot.  I do know how these things work. As I mentioned earlier it is not so much pitch sensitivity as how that manifests itself.

In FS2020 and FS2024 many GA and other aircraft exhibit very poor inertia but worse still behave like a bouncing spring in pitch. It is not per se the pitch sensitivity that is the problem but the yo-yo/bobbing up and down effect which is grossly exaggerated in both sims.

My apologies Rob! if you get impression that Implied  that you never flown it was never my intestine. My intention is convey my view. As with many pilots my  perceptions have changed over time. Flight instructing and  ownership primarily affected it. We are  as pilots are not always rigged the same!  LOL 

 

Back to the topic. Yes tweaking sensitivity say of pitch is substitute for force feedback. Ion think past I owned one of FF stick but it resembled nothing of real airplane.  That yo-yo /bobbing could be control sensitivity and exaggerated lateral stability . It doesn't necessarily means that sim modeling is wrong but how particular aircraft (in our case default) is done. MSFS2024 modeling is far from perfect but it much better than in previous version. With tons of add on for MSFS 2020 we know that 3rd developer make airplane more believable than default 

6 hours ago, Funky D said:

I was looking up flight sim yokes after reading through this thread, and I was surprised even some of the most expensive yokes usually only offer 160mm of elevator travel. Control curves are the only solution for a lot of aircraft. I get that it takes up a lot of desk space for full travel, but the trusty ol' CH Product's yoke had a bit of a solution for that: just have the shaft stick out the back and hope there isn't a coffee mug sitting behind it!

If you're patient and can wait until the company has caught up to its order backlog, the Fulcrum One has 200mm of travel. It's a marvelous piece of kit and absolutely worth the price.

 

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

 it was never my intestine.  

It was never your intestine??  ha ha!  (yes, yes I know it was probably autocorrect or something like that...but it's still FUNNY to me)

As for default aircraft flight models, I believe that at some point we'll be able to download the aircraft files / store them locally and unencrypted.  That point may be whenever they enable the Marketplace or Content Manager or whatever 2024 has.

But it was never my intestine to presume that unencryption will absolutely happen.  If it doesn't I agree that will be somewhat limiting to the sim's development.

44 minutes ago, Mace said:

It was never your intestine??  ha ha!  (yes, yes I know it was probably autocorrect or something like that...but it's still FUNNY to me)

 

Yes I hate when it happens and I don't catch it 😞

On 11/21/2024 at 4:21 PM, robert young said:

I watch for myself and so far I don't agree with any of the "reviews" you quote. I see people using very small stick movement for exaggerated responses, twitchiness in pitch and ridiculously over sensitive yaw on the ground. The "improper" controller config argument was used initially in FS2020 also but that didn't wash. But at least it was fixable because the FS2020 default flight models were unencrypted.

I've said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating here:

a. I've been an IRL bug-smasher pilot for many years, though I'm certainly not high time. The point being that I've got a good perspective on how aircraft perform.

b. I fly in about 4-ish flight sims, and I only fly High Fidelity addons, with a decided preference for those with a demonstrably good/excellent flight model.

c. I have NEVER been able to just get in an addon and fly it without creating a custom controls profile that alters the Sensitivity/Curve/Saturation of the controls. With the possible exception of the F-16, because the TM Warthog stick is quite similar in geometry to the IRL stick (which originally didn't move at all, but for many decades now has moved about 0.25 inch as a concession to IRL pilots who need at least a little movement for proprioception satisfaction).

In sum, I EXPECT to see "twitchiness in pitch and ridiculously over-sensitive yaw on the ground" in any given addon, and in any given sim. Though I do agree with you that v2024 is more twitchy than v2020, and other Hi Fi addons in other Hi Fi sims.

Soooo...given all that, and my appx 10 short flights in the NEW Default aircraft in v2024, IMHO the flight models in all the new Defaults I've tried are at least Good. And they provide a satisfying sensation of flight so far, with clear differences in performance and handling across the aircraft that are appropriate to class/type/etc.

The Airbus A310 still seems to hand fly at least good as it did in v2020, which is to say, Very Good. Is it "better"? I have no idea. But it isn't problematic at all.

The Airbus A400M, which some folks are complaining about problems on Final & landing, is hand flying very nicely for me, and I've no issues with laps around the (very large) pattern. 

Yes there are exceptions - I note that both the 737 MAX and Super Hornet can have drastically unrealistic pitch-ups at lift off, and as you've said, the Super Hornet is demonstrating an inappropriate amount of pitch "yo-yo-ing" that it certainly doesn't demonstrate in other Hi Fi addons (nor would it be acceptable in any way IRL).

But I DON'T find that "all of them" are unrealistic/unusable/undesirable. In fact, IMHO, they are generally much improved over the v2020s.

I've yet to try any 3rd Party Dev payware, though I see the FSR500 and A2A Comanche seem to be Dev "certified" as Compatible, so I will probably give them a try this weekend and see how it goes. They are wonderful addons of wonderful aircraft, and I'm hoping that they perform even better than they did in v2020. We'll see 🙂

I'll probably start making Sensitivity adjustments soon, but so far, i'm just flying them like a helicopter pilot: with very small movements appropriate to the flying performance RESULT that I want.

On 11/22/2024 at 4:56 AM, VeryBumpy said:

Agreed. This is exactly what I'm experiencing in FS2024. All the GA planes (haven't tried any huge planes yet) I've flown so far feel totally arcade and toy-like because of this instant, quick response in every flight control input.

In terms of "small" GA, I've flown the C172 G1000 (because it's Asobo's Reference Model) and the Carenado PC-12 NGX.

IMHO they perform in a representative manner, though I know I'll need to set custom Sensitivity for them (as I do for all addons).

7 hours ago, robert young said:

..........

In FS2020 and FS2024 many GA and other aircraft exhibit very poor inertia but worse still behave like a bouncing spring in pitch. It is not per se the pitch sensitivity that is the problem but the yo-yo/bobbing up and down effect which is grossly exaggerated in both sims.

Totally agree and I'm hoping the inclusion of Andrey (An.Petrovich) Solomykin to the team will help get this corrected - or at least make it easier for 3rd parties to correct.

4 hours ago, Mace said:

.......But it was never my intestine to presume that unencryption will absolutely happen.  If it doesn't I agree that will be somewhat limiting to the sim's development.

Personally, I think they'll make the default assets available for modding.  Don't think they really want to add to the "intestinal distress" of the community any further at this point (lol), but my guess is their hands will be tied legally on removing encryption for the assets of 3rd party partners (unless they grant approval, of course).

IMHO, the day Microsoft removes the ability for independent 3rd parties to improve the sim is the day the sim begins a slow death.

On 11/22/2024 at 3:44 AM, eslader said:

Yep, I've noticed that on my end. Just the slightest twitch on the pedals and the plane janks to the left or right on the ground, and about 5 or so degrees on the yoke is enough to rapidly bank. And I don't think it's controller settings because the cockpit yoke isn't moving any more than my hardware yoke is, but it should be at least past 1/2 deflection based on the roll rate.

 

Is this with all aircraft? And what hardware do you use? Have you tweaked the curves? I do not recognize what you describe at all. I can taxi without any issues and I need a fair amount of input to make a somewhat steeper turn. I don't experience janking at all...

On 11/22/2024 at 3:56 AM, eslader said:

The flight dynamics are fine. The sim is acting like much more control deflection than commanded is happening. But it's not a controller setting because if it were, the on-screen controls would deflect appropriately for the rate of change, and they don't.

So basically, you're commanding a small input, the sim recognizes that and commands a small input, and then the control surfaces deflect hugely.

Many of us are getting tired of the "experts don't know any more than the rest of us" crowd, btw.

 

The way I have set up my CH Products yoke now, with the C152 I see the same amount of movement on screen as what I perform with my yoke. Only the last bit of movement shows suddenly faster movement on screen. The way I fly, in the sim and real life, I have never had to use full deflection of controls (well maybe apart from that one real life moment the crosswind was so stiff I used almost all of my rudder deflection to keep the aircraft straight). So with mild inputs on the controls, as you would do when flying for real, the C152 behaves very satisfying.

I sincerely hope I haven't made you any more tired than you already are 😁

On 11/22/2024 at 8:02 AM, LRBS said:

Unfortunately, this gentleman, lwt1971, sometimes is very unprofessional. If there is any criticism against ASOBO, they are not at fault; it's just the customer, and he can't accept that something is wrong. And yes, some airplanes show little improvement while others are way off.

This gentleman LRBS should take some time to read all of the gentleman's lwt1971 posts so he can see for himself this remark is quite silly.

On 11/22/2024 at 11:46 PM, Bert Pieke said:

With that in mind, you should be careful about opinioning about Rob Young's observations..

I have huge respect for Rob and like you I have enjoyed a lot of his work in the past. However, he is not a saint and I'm pretty sure he can handle a different view.

On 11/22/2024 at 11:11 PM, robert young said:

The biggest giveaway is the "bounce" in pitch - for example when you are flaring for a landing no aircraft, however small, should be yo-yoing up and down in pitch. It is not so much the amount of movement, but the oscillations in pitch that are a sign of bad flight modelling. This is by the way quite different from pilot induced oscillation which is a completely separate issue.

As you are probably aware I've been doing this stuff for many years and I can tell very quickly when a flight model is a dud by looking carefully at the after-input reaction rather the input itself. 

 

Rob, good to see you post again. I remember similar discussion from four years ago after the release of MSFS 🙂 Where have you seen that 'yo-yoing up and down in pitch'? The way I have my sim set up now I don't see this at all. I have mostly flown the C152 so far and flaring feels controlled without the yo-yoing you describe. So could it be I have set up my controls correctly? Regarding the tweaking of controls, in another post you stated about the adjustment of axis sensitivities: Well, you can to a limited extent slightly improve things that way, but it's all a bit of an illusion. All you are doing is covering up the flaws in the flight model. I'm not trying to start an argument here, neither am I trying to undermine your expertise, but isn't tweaking the controls the only way to get the behavior of an aircraft right? If tweaking is only a means to cover up a flawed flight model, then why does every major simulator offer extensive options for tweaking the controls? Following your logic aren't they admitting their flight models are flawed without adjusting the controls? Regarding your work, the G36 mod for instance, does it fly as the real one without changing sensitivity curves? How can you judge if a flight model is flawed if you look at a simmer flying without the appropriate adjustments? The matter seems complex, I'm curious about your insights.

3 hours ago, Rimshot said:

Regarding the tweaking of controls, in another post you stated about the adjustment of axis sensitivities: Well, you can to a limited extent slightly improve things that way, but it's all a bit of an illusion. All you are doing is covering up the flaws in the flight model. I'm not trying to start an argument here, neither am I trying to undermine your expertise, but isn't tweaking the controls the only way to get the behavior of an aircraft right? If tweaking is only a means to cover up a flawed flight model, then why does every major simulator offer extensive options for tweaking the controls?

Well I think all sim flight models are compromised because domestic joysticks usually have a fraction of movement of most real aircraft, and even the ones that are the right size very rarely have force feedback, and if they do it's not very good. So we often have to substitute pressure with movement. I occasionally used to fly a friend's Extra and while it had incredible pitch and roll rapidity the stick was so beautifully balanced and the forces so perfect you could fly it like a benign airliner. You can't do that with home joysticks or yokes because there is no proper resistance to forces. So we have to find ways around that.

In Fs2020 some default aircraft also had a horrible "bounce" in pitch, so when you applied even small pitch inputs the nose would bob up and down. Most of my flight models had a large amount of pitch stability added in order to stop this. Large aircraft do not have this problem because their inherent inertia is massive compared with a small GA aircraft.

Adjusting the control sensitivity can cover up many things and that's not altogether bad. But this probably won't address the pitch bouncing. Some default aircraft are pretty good and during FS2020's life many of the defaults did get better over time. But the twitchy yaw you see, particularly on the ground, is unacceptable and the core flight modelling doesn't have enough parameters to properly iron this out, so you have to find very creative ways to get around it!

1 hour ago, robert young said:

so you have to find very creative ways to get around it!

I wonder if what you suggest would be possible with an external app. Remember the time when we tried to improve the autopilot? That kind of thing.

9 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

I wonder if what you suggest would be possible with an external app. Remember the time when we tried to improve the autopilot? That kind of thing.

Yes I do remember and I didn't thank you enough for your amazing attempts to tame the autopilot. Glad to see that you made a wonderful app that was so popular. I'm not a programmer so I'm not qualified to invent apps - just had to deal with what was available. You are way ahead of me.