Is anyone else getting any issues with the Warrior II?

-My aircraft still shows the MSFS 2020 tag in the thumbnail in the aircraft selection menu in 2024.
-I have no pilot visible in external view

I really, really want to like the Turbo Arrow IV.  Really I do.  I owned and flew a 1979 Turbo Arrow IV, so you can understand why I'd be so interested in a quality rendition.  This was, understandably, the first plane I bought when I returned to the sim last year after a long layoff but I bailed on it almost immediately for a host of reasons.  When I saw the upgrades, I immediately hopped on, downloaded and installed, hoping it would be the plane I wanted it to be, and...

I'm about ready to bail again.  This is hands down the hardest plane I have in the virtual hangar to hand fly and that's just not the way things should be.  It should be the easiest.  Pitch trim drives me crazy (yes, I've played with the slider on the tablet), the plane seems to wander all over the sky on its own, requires constant attention to the rudder and I can hardly take the time to set power or mixture without heading off in one direction or another in a heartbeat.  And if I do give up and try to use the AP for a while to give myself a break, well, the AP seems to have a mind of its own.  And this is the EXACT AP I had in my RL plane - without, of course, the "pitch hold" feature they've chosen to include on what is, in reality, a roll axis only AP.  

In real-life, a Turbo Arrow IV is rock stable and a pleasure to hand fly - it's the engine that required a deft hand to manage.  At one point, my real life AP suffered a failure that my avionics shop struggled to diagnose before a major trip, yet I flew it halfway across the country and back without even much caring that I had to hand fly for hours on end in hot summer bumps.

I dunno.  Perhaps there's something wonky in my installation or configuration (though I've now installed the third update, so three total "re-installs"), as others seem to think it flies just fine.  I only fly a small, select group of GA planes on a regular basis (BS analog Bonanza, Milviz 310 and BS Piston Duke), but this is the only one I find near impossible to hand fly.

Sorry if this sounds like venting, but this is a plane I'd really like to have work and I admit to being somewhat frustrated.  Unfortunately, in my sim it's still not right.  But as I said, maybe it's just me. 

 

Scott

Edited May 14, 20251 yr by tttocs

51 minutes ago, tttocs said:

I really, really want to like the Turbo Arrow IV.  Really I do.  I owned and flew a 1979 Turbo Arrow IV, so you can understand why I'd be so interested in a quality rendition.  This was, understandably, the first plane I bought when I returned to the sim last year after a long layoff but I bailed on it almost immediately for a host of reasons.  When I saw the upgrades, I immediately hopped on, downloaded and installed, hoping it would be the plane I wanted it to be, and...

I'm about ready to bail again.  This is hands down the hardest plane I have in the virtual hangar to hand fly and that's just not the way things should be.  It should be the easiest.  Pitch trim drives me crazy (yes, I've played with the slider on the tablet), the plane seems to wander all over the sky on its own, requires constant attention to the rudder and I can hardly take the time to set power or mixture without heading off in one direction or another in a heartbeat.  And if I do give up and try to use the AP for a while to give myself a break, well, the AP seems to have a mind of its own.  And this is the EXACT AP I had in my RL plane - without, of course, the "pitch hold" feature they've chosen to include on what is, in reality, a roll axis only AP.  

In real-life, a Turbo Arrow IV is rock stable and a pleasure to hand fly - it's the engine that required a deft hand to manage.  At one point, my real life AP suffered a failure that my avionics shop struggled to diagnose before a major trip, yet I flew it halfway across the country and back without even much caring that I had to hand fly for hours on end in hot summer bumps.

I dunno.  Perhaps there's something wonky in my installation or configuration (though I've now installed the third update, so three total "re-installs"), as others seem to think it flies just fine.  I only fly a small, select group of GA planes on a regular basis (BS analog Bonanza, Milviz 310 and BS Piston Duke), but this is the only one I find near impossible to hand fly.

Sorry if this sounds like venting, but this is a plane I'd really like to have work and I admit to being somewhat frustrated.  Unfortunately, in my sim it's still not right.  But as I said, maybe it's just me. 

 

Scott

What about the III, does it handle ok for you? I've not even tried to fly the IV yet so I can't say anything about that. Also no experience whatsoever with a T tail.

 

1 hour ago, tttocs said:

I really, really want to like the Turbo Arrow IV.  Really I do.  I owned and flew a 1979 Turbo Arrow IV, so you can understand why I'd be so interested in a quality rendition.  This was, understandably, the first plane I bought when I returned to the sim last year after a long layoff but I bailed on it almost immediately for a host of reasons.  When I saw the upgrades, I immediately hopped on, downloaded and installed, hoping it would be the plane I wanted it to be, and...

I'm about ready to bail again.  This is hands down the hardest plane I have in the virtual hangar to hand fly and that's just not the way things should be.  It should be the easiest.  Pitch trim drives me crazy (yes, I've played with the slider on the tablet), the plane seems to wander all over the sky on its own, requires constant attention to the rudder and I can hardly take the time to set power or mixture without heading off in one direction or another in a heartbeat.  And if I do give up and try to use the AP for a while to give myself a break, well, the AP seems to have a mind of its own.  And this is the EXACT AP I had in my RL plane - without, of course, the "pitch hold" feature they've chosen to include on what is, in reality, a roll axis only AP.  

In real-life, a Turbo Arrow IV is rock stable and a pleasure to hand fly - it's the engine that required a deft hand to manage.  At one point, my real life AP suffered a failure that my avionics shop struggled to diagnose before a major trip, yet I flew it halfway across the country and back without even much caring that I had to hand fly for hours on end in hot summer bumps.

I dunno.  Perhaps there's something wonky in my installation or configuration (though I've now installed the third update, so three total "re-installs"), as others seem to think it flies just fine.  I only fly a small, select group of GA planes on a regular basis (BS analog Bonanza, Milviz 310 and BS Piston Duke), but this is the only one I find near impossible to hand fly.

Sorry if this sounds like venting, but this is a plane I'd really like to have work and I admit to being somewhat frustrated.  Unfortunately, in my sim it's still not right.  But as I said, maybe it's just me. 

 

Scott

I never own, Arrow but flew and instructed in nearly every model there was. I took it for spin and have not notice anything abnormal.  

I have Honeycomb bravo/Charlie and TM stick. I set their sensitivity to my liking. I use big trim wheel on honeycomb bravo for elevator trim. I can trim for airspeed and it flies as expected. So there are problem there. Are you using some other add ons like FS realistic? That could add some odd behavior! 

2 hours ago, tttocs said:

This is hands down the hardest plane I have in the virtual hangar to hand fly and that's just not the way things should be

I agree. I explained to Robert Young what the handling problems were (still are) and he provided tweaks that performed magic to the flight dynamics. I don’t know if he ever publicly released the revised configs. If he did, try them.  Vastly improved and now a joy to hand fly.  

Edited May 14, 20251 yr by Danno

25 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I have Honeycomb bravo/Charlie and TM stick. I set their sensitivity to my liking. I use big trim wheel on honeycomb bravo for elevator trim. I can trim for airspeed and it flies as expected. So there are problem there. Are you using some other add ons like FS realistic? That could add some odd behavior! 

Yeah, something's got to be wonky.  No, not using FS Realistic or any 3rd party turbulence/weather - stricly stock.  I use a Honeycomb Alpha and Bravo, and also use the Bravo trim wheel - setup using spad.next.  I see the trim wheel in the sim moving very slowly as I rotate the wheel, with the trim indicator hardly moving, yet the pitch changes are huge.  On the Alpha, I've tried setting sensitivities all over the place with no joy, but I really don't think it's a control settings issue.  The plane is just all over the sky with no inputs whatsoever.  In an airframe which should demonstrate as much neutral stability as any, this one is anything but.

As others don't seem to experience this, it has to be something on my end but I've no idea what.

1 hour ago, jfv said:

What about the III, does it handle ok for you?

Haven't tried it,  I suppose it's worth looking at but I can't imagine why it would be substantially different.  The difference between the IV's T-tail and the III's normal tail IRL are, for the most part, limited to differences in pitch authority during takeoffs and landings and pitching moments on flap extension.  In normal flight there's really not much to distinguish them.

 

Scott

6 minutes ago, Danno said:

I agree. I explained to Robert Young what the handling problems were (still are) and he provided tweaks that performed magic to the flight dynamics. I don’t know if he ever publicly released the revised configs. If he did, try them.  Vastly improved and now a joy to hand fly.  

OK, glad to see at least one other user who's experienced this.  Unfortunately, I've not seen anything from him on the Arrows.

 

Scott

Just want to add naturally PA28R is very stable platform and very forgiven. Very easy to do commercial maneuvers. And probably the best airplane for power off 180 (as long as one doesn’t forget put gear down  ) lol 

The older models of Arrow had extra pito tube for auto gear deployment at slow speeds. It was later removed as per AD because of an accident  . I didn’t had a chance to check if Just Flight modeled it. 

3 hours ago, tttocs said:

limited to differences in pitch authority during takeoffs and landings

Pitch authority is modelled a bit too well, imo. Despite aggressive trimming, I find it drops like a stone sooner than it should (with stock flight dynamics). 

Edited May 14, 20251 yr by Danno

I've flown the IV now a couple times in both 2020 and 2024,  I think its awesome, while I was flying my Cherokee I always dreamed of upgrading to an Arrow, but I just could never quite justify the added cost. Annuals are always a BIG yearly expense, and add the turbo and retractable in each year and YOW, it's some bucks believe me. Of course simmers aren't usually aware of such issues. 

You know Asobo added the walk-around thing to give immersion, what I wish they would do is add real hangers, there's nothing like having that morning run to the airport, opening up your hanger and preparing for a flight. Somehow MS has never done that, it would add so much!

I don't know whether I'll end up flying the III or IV more going forward but both of them are excellent. 

1 hour ago, jfv said:

  I think its awesome, while I was flying my Cherokee I always dreamed of upgrading to an Arrow

I learnt to fly in an Archer and Warrior in 1975. $32 Aus dollars an hour. When C210's got to $300 an hour I gave up.

MSFS 2024 Warrior II - Is there some form of AP Altitude Hold?

T45

Update - I was looking for a cockpit solution, but have found that the keyboard 'Ctrl A' works.

 

Edited May 15, 20251 yr by Treetops45

14 hours ago, tttocs said:

Yeah, something's got to be wonky.  No, not using FS Realistic or any 3rd party turbulence/weather - stricly stock.  I use a Honeycomb Alpha and Bravo, and also use the Bravo trim wheel - setup using spad.next.  I see the trim wheel in the sim moving very slowly as I rotate the wheel, with the trim indicator hardly moving, yet the pitch changes are huge.  On the Alpha, I've tried setting sensitivities all over the place with no joy, but I really don't think it's a control settings issue.  The plane is just all over the sky with no inputs whatsoever.  In an airframe which should demonstrate as much neutral stability as any, this one is anything but.

As others don't seem to experience this, it has to be something on my end but I've no idea what.

Haven't tried it,  I suppose it's worth looking at but I can't imagine why it would be substantially different.  The difference between the IV's T-tail and the III's normal tail IRL are, for the most part, limited to differences in pitch authority during takeoffs and landings and pitching moments on flap extension.  In normal flight there's really not much to distinguish them.

 

Scott

I really hate to suggest this, but have you considered A2A's Comanche - I've flown the Comanche IRL a couple of times and the A2A is quite realistic. An example is nose down pitch moment when extending flaps, which all the PA28's do as well. That was one of my complaints with the Arrows from Justflight - they balloon/pitch up when extending flaps, exactly opposite what a real PA28 does. In general I found the JF Arrows to be VERY sensitive in all axis and not at all realistic so I quit flying them shortly after buying. I still haven't tried them again though I've kept installing the updates. Consider the Comanche, its flight model is head-and-shoulders superior to the JF aircraft, and I would argue the most realistically simulated GA flight model in MSFS - perfect...no, but darned good!

3 hours ago, somiller said:

I really hate to suggest this, but have you considered A2A's Comanche - I've flown the Comanche IRL a couple of times and the A2A is quite realistic. An example is nose down pitch moment when extending flaps, which all the PA28's do as well.

No worries, I appreciate any and all suggestions.  However, in this case the A2A isn't really in my future.  I know how good A2A planes are - their V35B was one of my absolute favorites in P3D and I wish they'd bring it over to MSFS, though I know it won't happen - but I just never cared for the Comanche in real life.  I'm not really looking for another plane to fly as I have several that are excellent and that I greatly enjoy.  I'm emotionally invested in the Turbo Arrow IV and want to find a way to enjoy it because it's what I owned and flew IRL.

BTW, your comment on PA28 flap extension is spot on with the exception of the Turbo Arrow IV.  One of the characteristics of the T-tail is that there is essentially no pitching moment in either direction on flap extension.

7 hours ago, jfv said:

I think its awesome, while I was flying my Cherokee I always dreamed of upgrading to an Arrow, but I just could never quite justify the added cost. Annuals are always a BIG yearly expense, and add the turbo and retractable in each year and YOW, it's some bucks believe me. Of course simmers aren't usually aware of such issues. 

Glad you're enjoying yours.

Yep, my annuals were always nervous times.  In its original configuration and before the aftermarket provided solutions with things like variable wastegates, intercoolers, cowl flaps and pressurized mags, the TSIO-360FB in my '79 was a finicky, finicky beast.  As I mentioned earlier, the airframe was a joy to fly - engine management was a whole 'nother issue and if you didn't pay attention it would cost you dearly at the end of the year.  It was easy to overboost and the turbocharging generated too much heat with not enough places for that heat to go.  CHT's would go through the roof in a heartbeat if you didn't watch climb rates and throw some extra fuel at it with the boost pump on warm days.  In fact, one of my minor quibbles on this implementation is that they didn't include a CHT gauge.  I would never, and I mean NEVER, fly a Turbo Arrow IRL that wasn't so equipped, especially if it didn't feature some of the aforementioned aftermarket mods.

Don't get me wrong.  With good technique, a careful pilot could easily make TBO.  A less than careful one would, however, spend a lot of money.  And the aftermarket eventually mitigated the big issues, making the airframe/engine combination a solid performer.

Scott

I'm curious to know which ones you consider to be excellent?