Stupid, no, but according to Avsim Staff, ignorant. Have a Forum member say that about another and that person is banned. I do see that my original point (Groups and Pages) is still being ignored and NO one has taken the time to do the research to refute it. Not that I really care as I also wrote in my initial post. I see from subsequent replies that apparently the F1 Mustang will get no further work, updates, or service packs since those would be un-profitable. I have no problem with that business decision. I never questioned anyone's time, money, commitment, or passion to the Mustang. A person asked for honest opinions of a product and I happened to point out ONE limitation (and a few positives). One that he might find himself one day if he took the time to fully understand the G1000.Please feel free to rip apart what I just wrote with mis-quotes and contextual misrepresentations. I too will no longer respond to this debate.

I see from subsequent replies that apparently the F1 Mustang will get no further work, updates, or service packs since those would be un-profitable. I have no problem with that business decision.

Who said that? What was said is that we don't have a custom shop available for specific requests. (nobody else does that I know of either)The other thing that was said and please listen carefully, decisions that are made are ones that are deemed to be profitable or necessary. Again, you have said something that isn't correct.Lets define this:Further work: I don't know anybody that closes shop on something unless it becomes out of date, or not worthy of attention any longer.Updates: Updates are at the discretion of the developer and may be based on requests that makes sense or strategic decisions for the product. Service packs: Those are things that are deemed necessary or critical and I think we have a good track record of providing speedy corrections.Your above claim is assumption and nowhere have we implied anything of the kind. You are simply mad because we did not think that what you wanted made business sense to us for this product.

Stupid, no, but according to Avsim Staff, ignorant. Have a Forum member say that about another and that person is banned.

Not sure what you're talking about here. We hold everyone to the same standard. Don't believe me? I've got a list of commercial members that I've shown the door, just like anyone else who makes personal attacks. I don't care who it is, who they are friends with, how many posts they have, or how respected they are in the community. Problem here is that I don't see any like I think you're claiming. Show me and I'll pull out the ban hammer, or at least a suspension. Sounds like you're reading something that just isn't there. All I see is great interaction between developers and users, which I would think everyone would be grateful for.......I know I am.

I own both the Eaglesoft and F1 products being discussed and frankly I am :( at how good they really are. That said guys, I am confused at the attitudes expressed by the venders in this forum towards the customer. I keep seeing remarks about how they are swamped or too busy to worry about the customer. I know that you take a lot of flaik from here. Most of us try to be patient and depend on you to give us the best toys you can at a price we can afford. I am starting to get the feeling that you developers thing we are all stupid here because we don't understand your problems. We are not. We work hard to make the money to buy the products you work hard to make. You might want to consider that if your customers didn't get excited by the new latest gadget then you will soon have no customers. That is not good for any of us.

Actually, arrogance on the part of developers may stoke their egos, but it gets them absolutely nowhere in the long run. The Mustang is a fine product, and one you can be proud of, but come on -- lets see that King Air!!

Actually, arrogance on the part of developers may stoke their egos, but it gets them absolutely nowhere in the long run. The Mustang is a fine product, and one you can be proud of, but come on -- lets see that King Air!!

Actually, arrogance on the part of consumers may stoke their egos, but it gets them absolutely nowhere in the long run. You see, accusations are not really solutions are they? :(

decisions that are made are ones that are deemed to be profitable or necessary.

Jim,considering your longstanding contributions to the hobby, and considering flight1's "pro" arm, has flight1 considered offering a high-ticket, high-fidelity "personal" edition of a pro product? Or, put differently, have you considered, as a trial baloon, making some features of a pro product, or an offshoot of a pro product, available to hobbyists? I'm thinking of a > $100 (or beyond) pricepoint.I know that you said that you'd be lucky to get 500 takers, but if it is work related to another professional product, perhaps giving us a taste would make sense?I realize the constraints of the consumer price point and wonder if we could start to see add-ons at the "enthusiast" and "prosumer" price points (and upwards).FSX, nigh on 4 years of age, is our swan song, so perhaps really wringing the juice out of her for a couple of high-fidelity add-ons would be warranted?Whaddya think?

Mustang is great, go get it!But is seems, reading some posts today, that the developers should listen to their customers more and not get so involved in defending why they didn't do something.

They are defending their business decisions precisely because misinformed comments by users is potentially harmful to their business!!! As for "listening to their customers", what makes you think that they don't? I have read each post in this thread, and the developers who have responded to criticisms and/or comments by other members have explained the reasons for their business decisions very clearly and concisely. If a handful of disgruntled users continue to see a conspiracy, then that's their problem.

They are defending their business decisions precisely because misinformed comments by users is potentially harmful to their business!!! As for "listening to their customers", what makes you think that they don't? I have read each post in this thread, and the developers who have responded to criticisms and/or comments by other members have explained the reasons for their business decisions very clearly and concisely. If a handful of disgruntled users continue to see a conspiracy, then that's their problem.

Agreed. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that modifications to the ES CX were the result of customer input here in the forums. Ron can correct me if I'm wrong. I know Carenado has responded to customer input here and provided patches accordingly - the 185 comes to mind, and I can think of other occasions as well.

I didn't say nobody listens and that they should not defend their business. I just got a bad vibe from some devs which is not good for business either.

I didn't say nobody listens and that they should not defend their business. I just got a bad vibe from some devs which is not good for business either.

A bad vibe? Because we have an opinion? because we defend that opinion and because we don't take a back seat to mis-information about our products or badgering about features?I am thankful for the many wonderful customers we do have, and I will bend over backwards for most of them, but I will also show unreasonable ones the door. The Internet medium is the only place in the business world that it seems someone can "dogpile" a business owner and not be shown the door. Thankfully we do have some mods like Right seater that understand the concept as well and If that is considered arrogant, than I will accept that title and thank you in advance for recognizing that I believe respect is a mutual arrangement.

Agreed. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that modifications to the ES CX were the result of customer input here in the forums. Ron can correct me if I'm wrong. I know Carenado has responded to customer input here and provided patches accordingly - the 185 comes to mind, and I can think of other occasions as well.

You are correct Jeremy. The accusation that devs don't listen to customers is false. I couldn't begin to number the revisions/addtions we've made due to customer input in our own support forums or in public forums and that applies to all of our products.There is a limit however and there are sound reasons for the decisons we make. Like Jim, we value our customers very highly but will not hesitate to suggest obtaining a refund if not satisfied with our work.The business of FS development is a retail model and retail rules apply to us as well as our customers. One of the rules we adhere to is that we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. If that rule causes some to have a "bad vibe" then so be it.Sort of reminds me of the old saw about "we'll bend over backwords to assist everyone but we're not bending over forward for anyone". :(

But is seems, reading some posts today, that the developers should listen to their customers more and not get so involved in defending why they didn't do something.

Have to agree, there is such a thing as ''over defending'' a product. And over defending a product is not good for customer relations.Just maybe, flight sim developers fall into the trap of getting too involved in such debates, becoming a little too defensive. In my humble opinion, I don't see that as a positive thing.Regards Martin.

Sort of reminds me of the old saw about "we'll bend over backwords to assist anyone but we're not bending over forward for anyone". :(

Hm, I wonder from whom you might have heard that one... :(Okay, someone asked about the process of development. I'm not about to write a complete precis of the process, but for just one seemingly "simple" piece of avionics such as a GTX330...1. obtain the official documents from Bendix-King (136 pages), and read, read, and re-read2. flow-chart all operations in proper sequence to establish the flow of user control and/or input3. make a list of features that are possible to accomplish in FS (in this instance everything was reproducible)4. make a decision on whether to code in C/C++/GDI+ or XML scripting.5. begin coding/scripting the logic dictated by step #26. code/script each 'screen page' and write the control logic for the switches, knobs, buttons, etc.7. test, recode, test, recode, test, repeat, wash and rinse until doneI actually kept track of the hours for this project. Total time from beginning to end: 68 man hours. At my normal "free-lance rate" of $85/billable hour, that comes to $5,780......unfortunately, I can only wish that I'd eventually earn that much over time! :(

Have to agree, there is such a thing as ''over defending'' a product. And over defending a product is not good for customer relations.Just maybe, flight sim developers fall into the trap of getting too involved in such debates, becoming a little too defensive. In my humble opinion, I don't see that as a positive thing.Regards Martin.

Customers who post opions which are false or misleading are not good for "customer relations" or the community....