I have not found anything in my reading of what has officially been made public, to support the presumption that any such agreement exists, Gerry.

 

 Obviously none of us know the details of the agreement but it's likely that it does preclude Lockheed Martin from entering the "other" market.

 

Lockheed Martin licenced ESP, not FSX,  and Microsoft retained the rights to FSX which it's still selling. Microsoft wouldn't want Lockheed Martin directly competing with that. Also the words "only for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment appear in every Prepar3D EULA. Lockheed Martin included this either because it was compelled to by the agreement or because it decided itself that it didn't want to be  in that market.

 

Obviously both could be changed in the future but my opinion is that Lockheed Martin isn't really interested in that market anyway or even a licensing agreement..

@mgh:

======

 

I believe your interpretation of the EULA is CORRECT!

The bottom line PMDG 737NGX works with P3D and so will the PMDG 777. I just wanted to make that clear to anyone casually reading this thread. 

@mgh:

======

 

I believe your interpretation of the EULA is CORRECT!

I agree - FOR HIM. and for anyone else who sees it differently, it is right for them. Unless you want to pay the $$$ to have a court rule on each section, the EULA is subject to YOUR interpretation. If the developer has a different interpretation they have the right to take legal action. Until that time, everyone's OPINION is exactly that THEIR OPINION.

 

Quoting sections out of context and explaining them in plain english sounds great but in the legal world plain english is not always correct. The difference between an 'and' and an 'or' or an 'if' and 'when' can be monumental.

 

My issue is not with differing opinions but with stating those opinions as fact.

 

I say again, my contract is with LM - it is up to them to decide if I am in violation - no one else. When and if they do, I am sure they will let me know. Meanwhile, I paid my money and I am having a ball with P3D.

 

I can't locate the thread, but a while back, there was a user who claimed that he WAS a lawyer specializing in that area and he picked apart various sections from a legal standpoint. His conclusion was that LM was purposely vague, etc. That was in the early days of the "EULA WARS" and the thread got locked and, probably deleted.

 

So form your opinion, state your opinion, live with your opinion and get on with it but please be sure to express it as YOUR opinion.

 

 

Vic

 

Or one could sit and wait and watch the world go by

'vgbaron', on 05 Jul 2013 - 5:49 PM, said:

the EULA is subject to YOUR interpretation

 

That's an interesting attitude. The EULA means what YOU want it to mean regardless of its wording. It's the Humpty Dumpty approach - When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

 

'vgbaron', on 05 Jul 2013 - 5:49 PM, said:

Quoting sections out of context and explaining them in plain english sounds great but in the legal world plain english is not always correct.

 

For the avoidance of doubt I'll quote the exact words in context.

Quote

1. License Grant. Subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA, Licensor hereby grants Licensee a fully paid-up, nontransferable, nonexclusive license during the Term of this EULA to use the Software: (1) on a single computer, (2) by no more than one user at any one time, (3) in connection with Academic Education, (4) by students, instructors and staff associated with Licensee's Academic Education, and (5) in the Territory.

 

14. Definitions. For purposes of this EULA

 

14.6 "Territory" means the State(s), Territory(ies), or governmental subdivision(s) thereof in which and by which Licensee is licensed, chartered or otherwise accredited to provide Academic Education.

 

If you have an Academic Licence can you tell us the Territory in which and by which you are licensed, chartered or otherwise accredited to provide Academic Education?

Can I suggest that bringing up the EULA topic yet AGAIN is just trolling. And should therefore be ignored.

 

I thought there was a rule against discussing this?

 

There is some interesting stuff on thus thread, it's just if we get on to EULA it's going to be pages and pages of the same old...

 

 

Hi, Just to be clear (and trying not to sound defensive!). Anyone can purchase Prepar3D. We do not sell it as an entertainment product and the EULA talks about that, which means that it will not be appearing on the shelves of Best Buy next to Call of Duty any time soon..... I am not sure where the rumour started that we sell only to certain people, but anyone can buy it. It isn't about consumers, but end-use. If you are a pilot, simulation user, student, whatever and want to use it for familiarization, training, taxiing over bugs then go for it. If you are 10 or 110 it doesn't matter. If you want to use it at an arcade game, then buy something else. You can go to our website and purchase it with a credit card and download it.

 

Seriously, who reads the EULA. I must have hundreds of  software cd's including OEM software and hardware and the only thing I could tell you about any EULA is theres an "accept" button. If you take my money  I'm will use the software I paid for.  The only way thats happens is to click "accept" regardless of whats in the fine print. So sue me..lol

 

Seriously, who reads the EULA. I must have hundreds of  software cd's including OEM software and hardware and the only thing I could tell you about any EULA is theres an "accept" button. If you take my money  I'm will use the software I paid for.  The only way thats happens is to click "accept" regardless of whats in the fine print. So sue me..lol

 

The sad truth!

That's an interesting attitude. The EULA means what YOU want it to mean regardless of its wording. It's the Humpty Dumpty approach - When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

 

 

 

For the avoidance of doubt I'll quote the exact words in context.

 

If you have an Academic Licence can you tell us the Territory in which and by which you are licensed, chartered or otherwise accredited to provide Academic Education?

 

Exactly, a good idea will be to have Avsim start a pole on who qualify for such license and end this discussion once for all  right?

 

Pool: How many Avsim member qualify for a P3D license...

 

1: Are you a student? Please provide the qualifying documents.

 

2: Do you qualify for an academic license? Please provide the qualifying documents.

 

3: Are you a school? and so on ....you get my drift..

 

We all know this will not happen, the poll would hardly have any members posting in it so let this thread be.

 

 

'JNicol', on 06 Sept 2011 - 1:50 PM, said:

Hi, Just to be clear (and trying not to sound defensive!). Anyone can purchase Prepar3D. We do not sell it as an entertainment product and the EULA talks about that, which means that it will not be appearing on the shelves of Best Buy next to Call of Duty any time soon..... I am not sure where the rumour started that we sell only to certain people, but anyone can buy it. It isn't about consumers, but end-use. If you are a pilot, simulation user, student, whatever and want to use it for familiarization, training, taxiing over bugs then go for it. If you are 10 or 110 it doesn't matter. If you want to use it at an arcade game, then buy something else. You can go to our website and purchase it with a credit card and download it.

 

Plain enough for you Gerry?

 

I repeat - my business is with LM and not you. Yes, I CAN tel you if I qualify but it's none of your business except to keep beating the same dead horse.

 

As to interpreting English and ANY EULA -  YES! it means EXACTLY what I understand it to mean. DO you not grasp the concept of reading and comprehension? Sine I am not a lawyer, I am bound by my own interpretation, as are you. You can quote the entire thing and it means NOTHING - it is subject to individual interpretation.

 

I am not discussing the EULA further - so take your best shot and rattle your sabre's while I enjoy flying P3D.

Vic

If LM ever look at any of this stuff they are definitely not going to have an Entertainment EULA for P3D version 2 because they will quickly realize that any profit they make on selling P3D V2 to the general Flight Sim Community will be spent on customer care LOL

Just my 2 cent opinion but I think what is in question particularly on the academic liscense is definition of student. The whole student part is very vague.

 

According to a bunch of online dictionaries ... student is defined as

 

1. a person formally engaged in learning, esp. one enrolled in an institution of secondary or higher education.

2. any person who studies, investigates, or examines thoughtfully: a student of human nature. One who takes a particular interest in learning a subject.

a person who makes a thorough study of a subject

Along with other wording along the same lines.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I will always consider myself a student of flying as I'm always learning and certainly taking a deep interest in studying it particularly with complex aircraft. What I knew 15 years ago on flying is far different than present.

 

I also seem to recall P3Ds definition including students in school in general as in elementary and on up with no formal flying school enrollment mentioned. Just that they have a particular interest in flying.

I will never be able to enroll in flying school as much as I want to due to money and simply because of height restrictions. I would never even be able to sit in a Cessna or piper. So I remain a free student.

 

Lockheed Martin has been very careful not to enter the retail entertainment market with Prepar3d and has some very good reasons for not doing so.

 

What? P3D is in the retail market. It isn't marketed for entertainment purposes. It just isn't sold at Walmart in the video games aisle. If you are a RL pilot, P3D is for you. If you are a student  or someone else studying to be a pilot, it is also for you. If you are a flight sim developer it is for you.

 

Seriously, how many people that are using either FSX or XP10 ATM are treating it as if the app was a consumer video game, to be played for a month or two until you "beat" it and then in essence ignored for all eternity? Those days are gone. That's why MS got out of the flight sim market.  

Exactly, a good idea will be to have Avsim start a pole on who qualify for such license and end this discussion once for all right?

 

Pool: How many Avsim member qualify for a P3D license...

 

1: Are you a student? Please provide the qualifying documents.

 

2: Do you qualify for an academic license? Please provide the qualifying documents.

 

3: Are you a school? and so on ....you get my drift..

 

We all know this will not happen, the poll would hardly have any members posting in it so let this thread be.

This is dumb because you assume that legally binding "qualifying documents" must be provided in these cases. That's an assumption on your part and a false one. You also place way more weight behind those assumptions you are making about this EULA then even a court of law would.

 

The language in this thing is full of holes and encourages vague interpretation on purpose. There's no expressed guidelines set out to define what a "student" is. And because there aren't, no assumption past that matters nor does any assumption (no matter how "common sense" you may think it is) hold any legal weight.

 

If you say you are using the software to practice procedures, then you qualify. If you say you are studying the dynamics of flight, then you qualify. If you say you are learning how to fly, even if you have no intentions of ever enrolling in a formal flight school, you qualify. So on and so forth.

 

There's no language in the EULA that demands documented proof of your intentions from a third party source. It doesn't demand enrollment in an official capacity in any program to be deemed a student. In fact, one of the major outlets LM is chasing with P3D is to provide individuals with a training aid outside of an organized classroom. It's right there on their website.

 

Some of you have been trolling this topic years now. Time to give it a rest.

Know what? I am back to FSX Gold... Heck, I'm not in the territory, I'm not a student (less from the philosophical pov...) and I'm sometimes tired of not being able to fully profit from some add-ons in P3D. Yesterday, after reading this thread, I felt like a Criminal... I'm flying ALL of my FSX add-ons, bought since 2006, up to the latest acquisition - A2A accufeel. Also, CumuluX!, the soaring weather injector, which was not fully working (and causing a lot of problems in P3D), runs as usual - beautifully - in the platform it was designed for... I'll wait and see what P3D v2 brings, simulation and EULA-wise...