Absolutely Scott, this community generally stands far above most others in terms of atmosphere, but in my opinion that is entirely the point. 

 

I have a long history in competitive FPS gaming, and am well aware of the nonsense that passes for discourse elsewhere. That is why I appreciate AVSIM for being what it is, and I'd like to try and keep it that way. One member's knowledge is not worth the 10 potential new members they might turn away with an abusive or disrespectful attitude, it just isn't, and in that context, I don't agree that tolerance should ever be afforded. That is a recipe for stagnation, and I have personally witnessed that happen many times over the years, where eventually, taken to it's theoretical conclusion, all you have left is a slowly diminishing community of know-it-alls that everyone else has rightfully left behind.

 

In all likelihood that will never happen here, but I don't think that means it's ok to just ignore consistently bad behavior.

 

Which brings me to a point I'd like to reinforce; I don't think anyone is saying this is a community-wide problem, unless I have misunderstood. There are, however; a few situations that have developed where consistently bad-mannered behavior has gone unchecked for a bit longer than some if us are able to tolerate. If I might be so bold as to project a bit, I think some of us have just had enough.

I have always thought that forums would run a lot smoother if every post listed two bits of info in addition to number of post. 1. Age 2. Primary Language. Both very important in how we answer a question or give advise. I am older and have trained many people to perform jobs in the real world. I like to think that I did a pretty good job in that area and always found the ole "There is no such thing as a dumb question" served me well.

 

This whole forum thing would work much better if you are one who is tired of the same ole questions then just "shut up" (LOL) and let others provide an answer. There are times when people ask questions because they want to be a part of what's going on. They sometimes simply want to belong. If that bothers you then it could be that you are not the right person to be giving answers.

I have not witnessed any of this but that is because I have magic glasses that allows me to ignore the Bull from the Bulls and cut through to the heart of the topic.   It is very very easy to go around these type of people and get to what you need/want.    I've only been here a few months but have found the AVSIM Forums to be a great source of information, valuable opinions and helpful guides.   I have seen a couple of out of line comments but as I said, my magic shades let me ignore these people that are not helpful and may only be in it to add one more post count to their counter.

Forum trolls and many forum bulls are idiots or insecure. Either way, you should never argue with them because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

 

 

There are however a few situations that have developed where consistently bad-mannered behavior has gone unchecked for a bit longer than some if us are able to tolerate, if I might be so bold as to project a bit, I think some of us have just had enough.

 

Brian,

 

I understand and appreciate your points, but here's where things get a bit difficult.  As I said, tolerance HAS to be a two-way thing.  The concept of "bad-mannered" is subjective and as others have pointed out, there have been blow-ups that were nothing more than misunderstandings of intent and/or differences in language and culture. 

 

Like most, I have a few individuals who post here that I simply try to ignore as I believe I've come to understand their intent and don't care for it.  On the other hand, there are a number of others who I've been tempted to personally place in this category but have since learned that I often misread their intent based simply on a style that rubs me a bit awkwardly.  I try (very hard, but not always with complete success) to separate personal preferences in style to get to underlying content and potential value.  Conversely, I've noted more than a few posters who struggle to deal with corrections and disagreement of any sort but who like to hold strong opinions, and who seem to be magnets for dissension as a consequence.  Tolerance and keeping an open mind in each of these cases are the keys.

 

Over-moderation is as stifling and defeating as under-moderation.  It's a tough balance, and one that I think Avsim handles VERY, VERY well. 

 

Where I think discussions like this can have value is in getting participants to think about their own posting style and how they might improve.  Problems are rarely just about "them", no matter who the "them" are, but regardless - solutions to the problems are almost always about "us".

 

Scott

Some of the experienced simmers assume themselves real 747 captains. 

Scott,

 

With ya 100%, there isn't a single word of your post I disagree with.

 

I'd only add, that in the specific instances I am thinking of, of which you may or may not be aware (and which it would be entirely inappropriate for me to detail), these aren't simple cases of folks being misunderstood. These are members that are actually quite proud of themselves for their direct, throw the baby into the frying pan approach, with little or no regard/concern for context.

 

I am not speaking of the community in general.

 

I think we are actually on the same page.

 My point was that since we're such a tight-knit group of people who like a rather advanced subject, that we shouldn't have the "videogame forum mentality", so to speak, considering what we do is more of a hobby than actual gaming.

 

 

Interesting you say that because in the context of these forums, we really are not that tight knit.We have our own 'clicks" just like in real life or other forums. The PMDG fanatics, the FS9ers, the FSXers, Xplaners, Homecockpit guys, the AI fanatics, etc. In a way that is what is great about this hobby, so many options, but it does keep some of us on the outs when we don't share the same types of flying style.

 

As for rudeness it is human nature and since we are all brought up in different environments, cultures, countries with different teachings, morals and values, it's all the be expected. I moderate 4 forums in different communities and have moderated in this one also and have seen first hand that what is black and white thinking to one user can be totally the opposite way of thinking to another. Even in this thread we have users that no not agree on searching the forums before posting a question issue which is black and white to me.

 

As posted earlier, i treat others as i want to be treated and that usually works for me.

I'll attempt to paraphrase a funny post on a different thread that I feel applies perfectly to this one. "Flight sim forums are filled with weird and wonderful creatures such as etiquette cops, grammar police, a few trolls, and some high and mighty know-it-alls". I'm sure this can be said of most other forums as well. Most ,however, follow some degree of decorum and civility. Flight sim forums are perhaps more prone to thread hijacks, harsh comments, and general misinformation. This is probably because they are populated by novice simmers with no relevant aviation training or experience ,full fledged 20,000 hr ATP certified pilots, and everything in between. Best regards

Personally, my patience wears thin when people come to a forum yelling about how they "found a bug", when it fact the only thing not working correctly was that thing between their ears.

 

Also, I'm not sure why people are so against searching the forums. It's true that the search function isn't the most helpful, but usually searching through Google with the relevant terms finds posts for you. I.E.- FSX (dev name) (aircraft name/type) (problem). 

 

90% of the time, you'll be able to find the answer you're looking for. If not, then absolutely make a thread. And yes, sometimes the question you have is so specific that it may be nearly impossible to find something through a search. Which is also totally fine. Make a thread. But at least put in some of the effort yourself. But that's neither hear nor there and more personal opinion.

 

 

I think the reason people usually come out swinging is simply a result of being worn down by the same questions being asked over and over again every single day.

 

In my experience, I think most of the people that are "bulls", aren't purposely doing it. I think they're just being straight to the point and blunt in their answers (which is what I prefer, on both sides of the equation). Being straight to the point is probably a result of answering the same questions 20 different times. It's just easier to put out a definitive, no BS answer after a while. Since this is the internet, blunt can come across as rude. Easily.  

 

That's usually the point where someone decides to throw the first punch. After that, yeah it can get ugly. 

 

The solution is 2-sided. First, people need to be a little more mindful of how their responding. Second, the respondee needs skin that's a little thicker. 

What exactly counts as rudeness in this context?

What exactly counts as rudeness in this context?

 

Any opposing point of view :smile:

Frankly, they need to stop replying to these questions that they find annoying. At least if they aren't going to offer a constructive response.

 

The bulls aren't demonstrating good use of what between their ears when responding the wrong way.

 

In many of the threads that go sour the OP gets a number of positive responses only to have someone step in and needlessly attack.

 

"Whenever a thread gets a little rise in my blood pressure, I don't click Reply! Instead I open Notepad or some other text editor and type a response into there. I walk away from it and then come back to proof read and edit it. If at that point I still feel like it is worth posting, then I post it. Most of the time I trash these replies without posting them, it just isn't worth feeding the fire."

 

 

 

Good tip, that's what I sometimes do in my work replies too.

 

 

 

Any opposing point of view

That must be it because no one's said what they count as rudeness in this context.