We have 2 rules here :
1 Rob, Vic, Steve and Pete are always right
2 If that is not the case go back to rule 1

 

Careful Gerard or it will be slapped wrists and the naughty step for you as well !!

And if you do not have a framerate counter onscreen you won't know at what fps you are looking

 

Above 30 my be, below your kidding.

I Run TrackIR and have no dead zones so I am making small movements all the time. When ASN sometimes updates or some other thing slows the fps I "see" it straight away.

 

I don't need anyone to tell me what and what I cannot see, if you cannot see when FPS are in there 20's, even more so low 20's then that's your problem. If its not a problem for you then great set them at 20. But just because someone cannot see the bad fps don't tell someone who can clearly see the difference there is none.

 

Like I said 30 plus you might have a point. 

Pete , Steve , Rob and Vic are saying it : smooth 20 fps looks the same as smooth 30 fps and looks the same as smooth 60 fps. And if you do not have a framerate counter onscreen you won't know at what fps you are looking.

 

The problem here is (besides your rules :wink: ), that this is simply wrong. If those people claiming this so called "fact" would actually click my link and open their eyes, they would see it themselfes, as everybody is capable of telling instantly which of the balls is more fluent or smooth in its movement on the screen, irrespective of the frame counter (there, Pete is basically right). And again, in this link, both balls move at an absolute constant frame rate, something you anyway never achieve in FSX, even not with locked frame rate... I do not care about the absolute FPS numbers, but I am absolutely sure that I am capable of telling the difference when someone shows me a setup where FSX runs perfectly smooth on 30FPS or perfectly smooth on 60FPS (as you can see on the link I provided...).

Pete , Steve , Rob and Vic are saying it : smooth 20 fps looks the same as smooth 30 fps and looks the same as smooth 60 fps. And if you do not have a framerate counter onscreen you won't know at what fps you are looking.

 

And is I wrote before : only at high speeds at low altitude and then making a sharp turn will show some difference in the distance...

 

Hmmm... No, sorry, no. For me and a lot of other people, 20 fps smooth does not look the same as 60 fps smooth. And even without a frame rate counter, I can discriminate between 20 fps or 60 fps (or between 20 fps or 40 fps). I did a test myself just to demonstrate that, some pages ago.

 

I really can't understand why other people are persuaded that they know better than me, how I should perceive 20 fps vs 60 fps, and how they are persuaded than I should find a "smooth" 20 fps enjoyable and as pleasant as 60 fps.

The problem here is (besides your rules :wink: ), that this is simply wrong. If those people claiming this so called "fact" would actually click my link and open their eyes, they would see it themselfes, as everybody is capable of telling instantly which of the balls is more fluent or smooth in its movement on the screen,

 

Well said. At this point, I'm wondering if all those claiming that smooth 20 fps must be perceived the same as a smooth 60 fps, are in denial.

 

I wonder how many of them actually tried either the page you linked, or the test I proposed: setting P3D for 20 fps, and then for 60 fps, and see for themselves the differences (with a decent rig and low display settings, it should not be difficult to achieve steady 60 fps).

Guys, how on earth would you see the difference between a smooth 30 fps en smooth 60 fps if the eye can only see at 24 fps ...?

 

To me you are all superhuman and that is fine.

I looked at the ball test and the so called 30 fps is less smooth than my Fs at 30 fps...

 

However, let me use max 30 fps and others 60 or even 120. I don't care as long as my sim looks great and flies smooth.

Pete,

 

The terms may be the same, but what I was trying to say is that even though you can get the frames to be as even as possible, ex. no stutter at 20fps, having the same sim running at 60fps does a lot for the sense of fluidity for the human brain. I Mean fluid because I remember water, it's continous, it doesn't go in small chunks, and the same with the sim at 60fps, it has enough data all the time so the eyes don't perceive any jump in the image, it's just a fluid simulation all the time.

 

About the eye not able to see over 24fps, that's such a myth. The newer VR Glasses such as Oculus Rift has been having a tough job to make proper 3d because we need more than 60Hz all the times in order for out brain not to perceive the screen, and therefore not get ourselves dizzy by using it for longer periods of time.

 

I believe around 75Hz is the sweet spot for humans. Have any of you guys seen the Hobbit movie on cinemas running at 48Fps instead of 24fps? It's such a monster difference, it made me MUCH more impressed than any 3d technology. Really

I am not going to comment on the stutters/framerate debate as a whole because it's just completed it's thirteenth full circle, but......I am so glad that I can live quite happily with a framerate of 20fps. It really does help when you are an eye candy freak like me.

I really can't understand why other people are persuaded that they know better than me, how I should perceive 20 fps vs 60 fps, and how they are persuaded than I should find a "smooth" 20 fps enjoyable and as pleasant as 60 fps.

 

Me neither.

 

Of course as I have been told there is more than likely something wrong with my system, perhaps that's your problem as well !!!

 

AnkH

I continue to post this in various threads about FPS: https://frames-per-second.appspot.com/

 

Thanks for posting that link, very enlightening, but as some still do not get it, to continue this discussion is pointless.

 

Happy flying at what ever frame rate suites you.

 

Mick

Guys, how on earth would you see the difference between a smooth 30 fps en smooth 60 fps if the eye can only see at 24 fps ...?

 

Well, this is one of the things people bring up every now and then again in forums, simply because they try to compare a movie and a computer generated sequence of individual images. Fact is, a human eye can see easily more than 24FPS, first because an eye does not "see in FPS" at all and second because there is a tremendous difference between a movie and a game. Read this and be enlightened (it has nothing to do with "superhumans"...):

 

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html

 

I looked at the ball test and the so called 30 fps is less smooth than my Fs at 30 fps...

 

You simply did not play around with the tool enough long. Turn down velocity to 100 pixels/s and it might be more closely to your FSX experience. But even with only 100 pixels/s, you can clearly see that the movement of the 60FPS ball is smoother than the one with 30FPS (or less).

 

Anyway: I totally agree that you have to setup your FSX according to your needs. I am also running my FSX at 30FPS locked, as my rig is simply not capable of keeping 60FPS constant and I am happy, if my FSX maintains the 30FPS as best as possible to have a smooth as possible gameplay.

SOLUTION:

 

1. Reset Nvidia/AMD Control Panel settings for Prepar3d to default.

 

In P3D:

 

1. Load up a flight in your preferred aircraft in your preferred scenario (Large airport in urban area, small high def airport in rural area, etc.)

2. Reset the Prepar3d Graphics settings to Default, set Frame Rate Limiter to Unlimited, set Vsync to On, enable Triple Buffer (if using NVidia hardware, not sure about AMD/ATi)

3. Fly, verify FPS are staying at monitor's refresh rate (usually 60).

4. If FPS are not near monitor's refresh rate, purchase newer hardware or choose a different simulator if you want to increase the graphics settings. If you are happy with what you have or have FPS of 60, proceed to step 5.

5. Increase graphics settings, starting with what is most important to YOU, checking the FPS after each change. 

6. Continue increasing graphics settings until you reach an unacceptable FPS, then dial it back to an acceptable FPS.

7. Set Frame Rate Limiter to the currently reported FPS, disable Vsync and Triple Buffer.

8. Verify fluidity of sim, if not fluid go back to unlimited frames and check. If still not stutter-free, go back to Step 5 and 6.

8. Once stutter-free FPS is found, and the Frame Rate Limit is set to the happy FPS limit, save the Graphics Settings Profile in P3D.

9. Enjoy your flight.

The terms may be the same, but what I was trying to say is that even though you can get the frames to be as even as possible, ex. no stutter at 20fps, having the same sim running at 60fps does a lot for the sense of fluidity for the human brain. I Mean fluid because I remember water, it's continous, it doesn't go in small chunks, and the same with the sim at 60fps, it has enough data all the time so the eyes don't perceive any jump in the image, it's just a fluid simulation all the time.

 

Yes, I understand and agree with that. But if something looks smooth and fluid, in the sense you are meaning, then it doesn't matter to me what the frame rate it. And for me, in the specific situation I am in (projection on a 10 feet wide screen with no part of any cockpit on screen, only the outside view, and seen through the cockpit windows), it certainly doesn't need to be as high as 60 fps. To me it looks just as smooth AND fluid at 40 or even 30, and, except in certain circumstances, as I mentioned, even lower.

 

It might be different if I was sitting two feet in front of a 30" monitor. Whether it would need to be 60 then or not I don't know but it doesn't bother me because it isn't my situation.

 

Pete

But even with only 100 pixels/s, you can clearly see that the movement of the 60FPS ball is smoother than the one with 30FPS (or less).

Agreed. Which means the 30fps setting is not as smooth as the 60fps setting. Now, get the 30fps setting AS SMOOTH as the 60 and look again.

 

It may be semantics but as far as flight sims go, we are dealing with TWO states - smooth and not smooth - we are NOT dealing with smooth, very smooth almost smooth or exceptionally smooth.

 

Get is equally smooth at 30 and 60 - no difference in movement.

 

I see people reading what I have written and focusing on the FPS - it's EASY to set the FPS - it is more difficult to get a smooth setting that is constant between frames settings (within reason).

 

I do not doubt for a minute that some see a big difference, if I wanted to detune my system I could see the same thing, to me all that proves is that differences in setup and/or hardware have a significant effect.

 

ALL I am saying is that new people coming into the hobby - shoot for the LOWEST FPS setting at which you get the SMOOTHEST experience.

 

For years the majority of posts come from users who have fits because they can't maintain 60+fps like their COD game etc. I just think we need to get off the FPS bandwagon.

 

But it's your sim and you set it up the way you like it.

 

 

Vic

SOLUTION:

 

1. Reset Nvidia/AMD Control Panel settings for Prepar3d to default.

 

In P3D:

 

1. Load up a flight in your preferred aircraft in your preferred scenario (Large airport in urban area, small high def airport in rural area, etc.)

2. Reset the Prepar3d Graphics settings to Default, set Frame Rate Limiter to Unlimited, set Vsync to On, enable Triple Buffer (if using NVidia hardware, not sure about AMD/ATi)

3. Fly, verify FPS are staying at monitor's refresh rate (usually 60).

4. If FPS are not near monitor's refresh rate, purchase newer hardware or choose a different simulator if you want to increase the graphics settings. If you are happy with what you have or have FPS of 60, proceed to step 5.

5. Increase graphics settings, starting with what is most important to YOU, checking the FPS after each change. 

6. Continue increasing graphics settings until you reach an unacceptable FPS, then dial it back to an acceptable FPS.

7. Set Frame Rate Limiter to the currently reported FPS, disable Vsync and Triple Buffer.

8. Verify fluidity of sim, if not fluid go back to unlimited frames and check. If still not stutter-free, go back to Step 5 and 6.

8. Once stutter-free FPS is found, and the Frame Rate Limit is set to the happy FPS limit, save the Graphics Settings Profile in P3D.

9. Enjoy your flight.

Maintaining 60 FPS with addons is, in most cases, not possible. Without 1/2 refresh rate vsync P3D will never be as smooth as FSX.

Habe meinen Monitors auf 50 Hz eingestellt OP ist und 50 FPS in P3D, ist glatt Wie ein-Baby!

 

 

Grüße holliwutt


 

 

 

For years the majority of posts come from users who have fits because they can't maintain 60+fps like their COD game etc. I just think we need to get off the FPS bandwagon.

 

At last.... The most sensible statement in this thread!

 

Thank You Vic.