Howellerman

Mistakes Were Made

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41 minutes ago, Howellerman said:

Interesting recreation of the Lear 35 crash at Teterboro. PIC and SIC were not communicating, and both were ignoring air traffic control. Both lost their lives - fortunately nobody else was killed.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ntsb-animation-on-2017-teterboro-nj-plane-crash-1833251081

Wow!  That's interesting.  Thanks for posting.  I was wondering what happened.

This captain seems to have had his mind on other things.

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Man, I wish I hadn't watched that.

Just ugly and a complete disregard for everything that makes up piloting an aircraft. I could go on, but won't.

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Wow!!

I won’t call it an accident....that’s an incident that should have never have happened. 

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 One of the Most mindless thing I've heard of. aviation or not.

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There was a CRJ accident I recall where the pilots took it up wanting to see if it could truly make FL410, its certified ceiling.  I do not know the details but the aircraft and pilots were lost.  Once again bad decision, but God Bless pilots, so many make the right ones every day, has to be a factor of 99 percent that cannot be measured out to its decimal places, in GA, in ATP, in ultralight flying, in ground maintenance, in the decisions of the flight attendants, ATC and so on.  And that is truly world wide. 

I am always reticent to trample on the graves of those pilots who have made errors in judgement, I have made more than they have in my life to my regrets which have almost cost me my life a few times.  That is why I took a drivers training course after a minor fender bender thinking I'd be bored to tears.  I

t helped me unlearn those driving and life habits I built up making me thing, because I had never caused an accident before, that I was invincible.  We are all fallible, if there was someone in our world who was not we would have had world peace a long time ago, they would lead the UN or some other peace organization, but the perfect one has not been found yet, who can inspire us all to be perfect, so to speak in our personal or judgemental lives. 

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Yeah I've been following the NTSB analysis of that Lear...  I don't think ATC was very helpful either (sloppy phraseology)....  but the lack of communication between the pilots/CRM/etc was very very bad.  Some people might say "circling approaches are unsafe" blah blah blah but I think it's a good approach for certain situations... and one like this where N90 tracon has to work very hard to bring in a high volume of bizjet traffic around high volume of airliners to EWR, I think it's an acceptable approach to provide.  It also sounds like this specific CTL is fairly standardized and many many others have flown it successfully over the years without incident.

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2 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

There was a CRJ accident I recall where the pilots took it up wanting to see if it could truly make FL410, its certified ceiling.  I do not know the details but the aircraft and pilots were lost. 

That was a Pinnacle CRJ-200....Now they are Endeavor.  They tried to restart them and nearly made it to an airport without the engines but crashed short of the runway.

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Total pilot incompetence and ATC as well.  Best guess based on this is that yhe PIC  was detached and distracted.  How could he have so badly misjudged the distance to the destination? How delegate to an unrated pilot?  How observe but get that deep into an approach?  As for ATC? How could they follow that deep into an approach without challenging, issuing "wake up" contacts, and diverting?

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How it should have been done RIP,

 

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Why didn't ATC simply tell them to GO AROUND after they were so far off course and in a dangerous position to circle for 1, or even give them permission to land on 6 if the crosswinds were not so bad? That report lays the blame almost entirely on the pilots, although so many obvious mistakes should surely have raised attention, possibly of incapability or intoxication? Cross at 200 feet instead of 1500... Big warning that. 

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The video posted by Jim (BigSky) was interesting as well - you could see the pilot's control inputs reflected in the windshield and he was really sawing away at that yoke as he got close to the runway.

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Imagine what the family and friends of the two pilots must think and feel as they listened to the entire ATC and cockpit recordings, along with the video re-enactment? 

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ATC probably had their hands full with NYC traffic. However, someone could have done a better job in control

As for the PIC, he is mostly responsible for this tragedy as he exhibited very poor pilotage and ultimately he was responsible for the aircraft and two souls.

When asked by the co-pilot to take over, he should have done so.

Also the go around statement made earlier is true. A forced landing is never a good one. Apparently a lack of airspeed, direction, and control in the video.

Sad situation all the way around.

 

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12 hours ago, BIGSKY said:

How it should have been done RIP,

 

He was really working that yoke hard on short finals

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8 hours ago, zmak said:

He was really working that yoke hard on short finals

When I fly either in P3DV4 or Xplane11, I always like to manually set my surface winds at an angle to my approach path at just 1 knot, but with gusts around five knots or maybe a tad more.  As a real life student pilot I find this replicates real world landings and the effects of chop quite realistically.  I usually turn off turbulence because I find that less realistic except in rare circumstances, if I want a real challenge.

I have to say setting winds up this way has made me a better student, less focused on "instrument hypnosis" and more focused on seat of the pants approaches with the autopilot off once I commit to decision height, which is as soon as I see the field.   Our sims are more capable than we think and that is why my CFI, after an hour long interview on my first flight, gave me the aircraft until about five seconds before touchdown, in which we shared the yoke and pedals so I could follow the subtlety of his movements.  He was a young CFI, half my age, but already an ATP and had a few thousand hours, give or take, aviation was simply who he was and I have found several CFI's in his mold, including experienced simmers and/or pilots here.  Learned from everyone here, especially threads like this one.

My favorite air magazine was flying magazine, and I am posting the link to their 50th edition here again.  My favorite reading was always "I learned about flying from that"....

https://books.google.com/books?id=SOUUuRXEFmoC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

John

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54 minutes ago, John_Cillis said:

When I fly either in P3DV4 or Xplane11, I always like to manually set my surface winds at an angle to my approach path at just 1 knot, but with gusts around five knots or maybe a tad more.  As a real life student pilot I find this replicates real world landings and the effects of chop quite realistically.  I usually turn off turbulence because I find that less realistic except in rare circumstances, if I want a real challenge.

I have to say setting winds up this way has made me a better student, less focused on "instrument hypnosis" and more focused on seat of the pants approaches with the autopilot off once I commit to decision height, which is as soon as I see the field.   Our sims are more capable than we think and that is why my CFI, after an hour long interview on my first flight, gave me the aircraft until about five seconds before touchdown, in which we shared the yoke and pedals so I could follow the subtlety of his movements.  He was a young CFI, half my age, but already an ATP and had a few thousand hours, give or take, aviation was simply who he was and I have found several CFI's in his mold, including experienced simmers and/or pilots here.  Learned from everyone here, especially threads like this one.

My favorite air magazine was flying magazine, and I am posting the link to their 50th edition here again.  My favorite reading was always "I learned about flying from that"....

https://books.google.com/books?id=SOUUuRXEFmoC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

John

Thank you for the link...enjoyed among other things a short article by Isaac Asimov from which I read many of his books.

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