1 hour ago, eslader said:

And those seat of the pants re-entries might be fun, but they sure ain't realistic.

It's a sim.  We can do things like that. 😄

I timed my reentry burn too late one time and ended up way too high.  I skipped the top of the atmosphere for an entire additional orbit and landed without problem.  Something you only learn by messing up as it won't happen in real life.  I didn't start off doing that way; I calculated everything out.  I only started doing seat-of-the-pants reentries after I'd had a lot of experience.

The reentry profile is calculated months ahead of time.  A mid course correction is calculated at the time.  One time mine was so good I collided with the station.  Only one time. 🙂

While Orbiter had a steep learning curve, I did not find the interface to be a problem.

I flew seat-of-the-pants in Orbiter for the same reason I prefer a DC-3 to a modern jetliner:  I want to *fly*, not operate a flying computer. This is a quote attributed to one of the Breitling DC-3 pilots when asked why he wanted to fly in the DC-3 around the world mission.

Some people prefer to push some buttons on the FMC for a few minutes and let the autopilot do the rest.  I prefer to hand fly.  Both of these are valid.  I also prefer to have fun once in a while.  This is valid too.  For a new flight sim to attract new people, it needs to be approachable and fun.  But it shouldn't be limited to just the fun, there needs to be some kind of serious side for those who wish to pursue the hobby further.  People shouldn't be forced to use only the serious side.

Hook

Edited June 26, 20196 yr by LHookins

15 minutes ago, LHookins said:

For a new flight sim to attract new people, it needs to be approachable and fun.  But it shouldn't be limited to just the fun, there needs to be some kind of serious side for those who wish to pursue the hobby further.  People shouldn't be forced to use only the serious side.

Definitely. That's the balance I'm hoping MS will achieve with 2020.

 

... If someone managed to attain that balance in a spaceflight sim I'd be on cloud 9.

 

4 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Some people prefer to push some buttons on the FMC for a few minutes and let the autopilot do the rest.  I prefer to hand fly.  Both of these are valid.  I also prefer to have fun once in a while.  This is valid too.  For a new flight sim to attract new people, it needs to be approachable and fun.  But it shouldn't be limited to just the fun, there needs to be some kind of serious side for those who wish to pursue the hobby further.  People shouldn't be forced to use only the serious side.

People aren't "forced" to use the serious side in current flight sims. There are choices.

I can start my aircraft in XP with engines running and lined up on the runway. No walk-around, no pre-flight checklist, no cold start. But if's there if I want it. 

I can use time compression to eliminate the boredom of a long cruise phase, and focus more on the exciting takeoffs and landings. But the full cruise time is there if I want it.

I can even fly with mouse and keyboard if I want. The Summer 2018 automated survey of XP11 users showed 25% of XP pilots use a mouse and keyboard as their only controller! That surprised me, and I expect others too, but it shows that not all simmers are hardcore.

Bottom line: nobody is forced to us full realism in these current sims (well unless you buy a PMDG model, I guess). In this and other current sim platforms, I have the choice to "dumb down" the sim and make it easier, or go full-out for realism.

How much easier do we need to make it? Do we need to let people with only a casual interest hop in as a passenger with an AI pilot, and not bother with controlling the plane at all? 

My hope is that the new MSFS is just as "hardcore" as FSX was, and that P3D and XP are now, so we have another good choice and it lights a fire under the butts of LM and LR. I hope they want to regain the prominence they once had. I hope they don't do a re-run of MS Flight just because they have potentially wider distribution now on Xbox. That's all I'm sayin' here. Our flight sims are "fun" enough, and "easy" enough for anyone with even a small interest in aviation. The rest can play Ace Combat on their Xbox.

6 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

How much easier do we need to make it? Do we need to let people with only a casual interest hop in as a passenger with an AI pilot, and not bother with controlling the plane at all?

No need to, there's youtube... Where I live kids don't play games anymore, they just watch other kids play games on youtube and twitch. 

3 minutes ago, simmerhead said:

No need to, there's youtube... Where I live kids don't play games anymore, they just watch other kids play games on youtube and twitch. 

Ugh, Twitch streams. Don't get me started. I blame social media for this trend of young people constantly comparing themselves to everyone else online, and being afraid to discover what they can do for themselves. Easier to watch someone else do it, because you'll never be that good. I don't understand it, but then it's traditional for us olds not to understand the younger generations.

26 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

Bottom line: nobody is forced to us full realism in these current sims

That's the whole point.  There are people who want everyone to be forced to use full realism.

That kind of realism should be available, but it shouldn't be the *only* thing available.

Hook

1 hour ago, eslader said:

Definitely. That's the balance I'm hoping MS will achieve with 2020.

They try not to limit but the competitors simply will put their fingers on the weaknesses to improve their market position. While Microsoft wiull try to optimize their income. The pure consequence is simply that they to split their market. For Microsoft they simply earn more when they target more people but at least X-Plane can earn money when Microsoft would only use money. Both companies don't want to loose money.

For Microsoft it simply makes sense in the competition with Google (Cloud gaming) and Sony (behind the scenes Microsoft and Playstation will sell nearly the same consoles... But this is one of  the features that they have that Sony won't have).

It is simply a problem: You have limited amount of money you can either add a nice feature that everyone sees or you can add a new version of an autopilot. For X-Plane the autopilot can really make sense but not for Microsoft.

Edited June 26, 20196 yr by Longranger

1 hour ago, Paraffin said:

Ugh, Twitch streams. Don't get me started. I blame social media for this trend of young people constantly comparing themselves to everyone else online, and being afraid to discover what they can do for themselves. Easier to watch someone else do it, because you'll never be that good. I don't understand it, but then it's traditional for us olds not to understand the younger generations.

Everybody get OFF MY LAWN!

grrrrrrrrr

🤣😉

23 minutes ago, Longranger said:

It is simply a problem: You have limited amount of money you can either add a nice feature that everyone sees or you can add a new version of an autopilot. For X-Plane the autopilot can really make sense but not for Microsoft.

That is where 3rd party developers come in   

1 hour ago, Paraffin said:

Ugh, Twitch streams. Don't get me started. I blame social media for this trend of young people constantly comparing themselves to everyone else online, and being afraid to discover what they can do for themselves. Easier to watch someone else do it, because you'll never be that good. I don't understand it, but then it's traditional for us olds not to understand the younger generations.

Yeah thats ridiculous. I will never understand how one can watch someone else play a game and even donate money to them. What a waste of...everything

Twitch can be very much a social and interactive thing.

People are leaving comments and the person playing is responding to what people are saying and it just becomes very much a social fun thing.  Sometimes they are asking to see a certain aspect of the game, or just enjoying it to kill time. 

We may not understand it, but they enjoy it so all good  

Nothing about playing “virtual airline pilot man” is any more relevant or worthy of time spent than what people are doing there. That is a completely subjective determination.  

I’m sure many twitch users would struggle to understand the appeal of people doing a real time virtual simulation of a long haul flight where they refuse to leave their seat and insist on piloting the entire time for every moment.  

Different strokes for different folks. 

Edited June 26, 20196 yr by irrics

56 minutes ago, DaWu said:

Yeah thats ridiculous. I will never understand how one can watch someone else play a game and even donate money to them. What a waste of...everything

It's a form of tutorial.  While I probably wouldn't donate money, I like watching someone who knows what they're doing playing a game that I'm also playing where I'll learn something.  Some of these people are real artists.

One of the fun things in Flight was watching what people were doing with it.  How many planes can we land simultaneously on top of this hangar (about 10)?  Or the Hilo control tower (3)?  Just for fun.  Another interesting thing was watching a very good pilot flying one of the timed courses:  we got to see the route he was flying and what techniques he was using.  Interestingly enough, he flew the Icon from external view with the mouse.  

I'd love to see videos of people flying FSX/P3D and landing at SABA using the stock scenery and real world weather.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, try it some time.  The last time took me two go-arounds in the Aerosoft BeaverX.

Or an even simpler one:  watch someone take off from Meigs in the default Cessna and climb toward the John Hancock building and fly between the antennas on top.  This one took me a long time to get right.

It's basically a tutorial by someone who knows what he's doing.

Hook

 

1 hour ago, Bert Pieke said:

That is where 3rd party developers come in   

Agree, but only for the complicated / time-consuming stuff, such as (but not limited to) aeroplanes and airfields.
I want the base sim to be so good that we don't need, nor see, several different developers all offering their own texture, shader or tool programs that either replace or hack parts of the original sim.
 

It is amazing how instantly you can tell you're looking at P3D

I really hope the new sim exudes a "different feel" finally.

It's like it's something with the rendering - you just know it when you see it..

 

God I hope the stutters are gone finally too - Noticed the on climb out 

 

Thx for posting the link Rob

Edited June 27, 20196 yr by irrics

I'm sorry, but this P3D video isn't any closer to what we saw on the Microsoft FSim teaser video. Clouds, reflections, city enviroment...