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Scottoest

Unrest in the Sim Community

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Is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of salt flying around, since the announcement of MSFS?  I've spent some time perusing reactions to MSFS on both other areas of this website, as well as forums for various 3PDs like FSLabs, PMDG, Orbx, etc.  I've noticed a couple of things:

1) A lot of either dismissiveness or outright hostility to MSFS - ranging from the predictable stuff (ie. "it'll be a game, not a sim", "remember MS Flight?"), to more nebulous hostility that seems to stem from the perceived threat it poses to sims like P3D and XP (I guess?).

2) A weird backlash to some third party add-on developers.

As a relative newcomer to the FS community, I guess I just never realized it was so factional?

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52 minutes ago, Scottoest said:

[...] does there seem to be a lot of salt flying around, since the announcement of MSFS?

No, it's not just you.
I think the announcement has brought out the worst of some people, whether they are excited by, or concerned by, the arrival of a game-changing sim.

Part of the backlash against 3PDs and current sims likely comes from the lack of much progress (in comparison to what MSFS seems it will offer) in the base sims, the need to visually improve them by stuffing them full of add-ons which hits performance, and the steady move from freeware to ever-more expensive payware add-ons.

What the people who bash the current offerings seem to forget, is that Microsoft and Asobo have resources and game design knowledge multiple times greater than IPACS, LR, or even LM have and are willing to throw at a sim, plus that add-ons have become a lot more complex than we had in the early- to mid-years of FSX or XP9 / 10.


Part of the backlash against MSFS seems to originate from a fear of change and the fact that hundreds (if not thousands for some) of £/$/€ that have been spent on 'prettying-up' the current gen sims are all about to be rendered very old and very quickly. Something that costs (at a guess) $60, is going to blow away something that needs $'00s to look vaguely acceptable in 2019.
With the vast majority of simmers willing to migrate, those that want to stay with current sims know that they are going to find new add-ons for them start to dry-up.

Then there's the upset some feel at Microsoft abandoning the flight sim community. There are some real grudges against MS of old, combined with, IMO, a somewhat unhealthy adoration of some payware 3PDs for keeping the genre alive and moving it (very) slowly forward.
What the people who bash the upcoming flight sim seem to forget, is that we used to get a major sim update every 2-3 years and with this latest offering from Microsoft, we will hopefully get a contemporary gaming experience which leverages current PC hardware capabilities.


As for it being factional, I take it you missed the sim wars?
 

Edited by F737NG
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Despite this huge announcement stirring everything up, this isn't new indeed. People have been defending their simulator of choice for years now, Prepar3D vs. X-Plane has been the most prominent battle.

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Sim Wars? lol.  Yeah, that's new to me, but I'd love to hear about it.

The residual hard feelings towards Microsoft I sort of quasi-understand, but Microsoft also isn't really a person with individual pathologies, opinions, and personal flaws.  It's like when people say MSFS will be more of a game than a sim, because that's what previous MSFS entries were like - they literally just share a brand name.  MSFS 2020 is being made by a completely different studio, under a different corporate division (the Xbox Division), reporting to a completely different Microsoft CEO who has his own completely different priorities than, say, Steve Ballmer had.

I'd get not jumping on any bandwagon and being cautiously optimistic, which is a smart default state when it comes to any large multinational corporation, but I'm really baffled by the outright hostility MSFS's sheer existence seems to be causing.

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32 minutes ago, Scottoest said:

MSFS 2020 is being made by a completely different studio, under a different corporate division (the Xbox Division), reporting to a completely different Microsoft CEO who has his own completely different priorities than, say, Steve Ballmer had.

Exactly!

 



Alan Ampolsk

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This entire issue has been very disappointing. I will never understand the negativity to a new sim. You people should be ashamed. Wait and see the gift you are given,. 

 

 

De

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Thank you.

Rick

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People spent thousands of dollars on their record and cassette collections and along came the CD. People then spent thousands more on CDs and then Steve Jobs showed us the iPod. We all spent thousands on FSX/P3D... and then Microsoft showed up to E3.

Hobbies cost money. Whether it's PC gaming, automotive racing, archery or firearms, RC airplanes, woodworking or golf, or maybe even your hobby is drinking beer. It costs money. Nobody had any idea Microsoft was doing this so the addon market for P3D was stronger than it has ever been. We all thought we were just going to be using P3D for as long as Lockheed Martin would put time into it. Then with one 4 minute or so video, all of our investments seemed to be irrelevant and I think that got a lot of people defensive.

I spent a large amount of money on addons, I have too many. I have no regret, each one has brought me joy and knowledge. I say bring on this new sim, it looks absolutely amazing.

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Is it done yet? When will it be released? Will it be freeware or payware? How much will it be? Any updates on the progress? Will it work for FSX? What's the minimum requirements? Can I be a beta tester?

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1 hour ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

Despite this huge announcement stirring everything up, this isn't new indeed. People have been defending their simulator of choice for years now, Prepar3D vs. X-Plane has been the most prominent battle.

I call it the "Guardians of the Realm" syndrome. You see it with sims, scenery, and aircraft. People act like they've got money invested in the product beyond what the sale price is. Personally, I think everyone gets themselves too worked up over these things. This is supposed to be an escape, not the be all and end all of people's lives.

 

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Sorry but none of the above is accurate.

I love what I see ... this issue is pretty simple.  Developers kept the MS platform alive and their/our rewards was a PR campaign that took us all by surprise ... 6 months later and still nothing delivered.  Timing is key.

Its got nothing to do with the new sim itself, its how the PR campaign was prematurely delivered that has triggered so much angst.  This left many developers with products they’ve invested considerable money into that will likely not recover the projected income to earn a profit or break even.  It could have been managed much better and all drama could have been avoided, but it wasn’t.

So as with most things its about lost investments/money.

It really has got nothing to do with the new sim itself, that looks to be pretty awesome IMHO.

Cheers, Rob

 

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Yes Sir!

People sure do get upset when their world turns upside down.

Imagine what it feels like to be a major addon company and have business come to an almost standstill due to the anticipation for MSFS 2020 by your former customers who no longer get excited enough to buy your product for the old sim.

Imagine the feeling of displacement as a customer if you feel, rightfully so, that time is passing you and your expensive stockpile of flight simulation goodies and hardware by. Talk about impending doom for the old order and hailing of the new; this takes the proverbial cake!

On the other hand I am excited and thrilled that my dreams of radical improvement of the flight simulation world is nearly upon us. I am too old for the same old, same old, and am thrilled and excited about what will soon be new, coming to a 65 inch screen near me!

It is the best of times and the worst of times that the flight simulation world has seen for decades, if not ever! Yes sir, people are indeed a bit upset, one way or the other. Such is life at its' best!

Yippie! :smile:

Kindest regards, 

Spirit Flyer

Stephen

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9 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Sorry but none of the above is accurate.

I love what I see ... this issue is pretty simple.  Developers kept the MS platform alive and their/our rewards was a PR campaign that took us all by surprise ... 6 months later and still nothing delivered.  Timing is key.

Its got nothing to do with the new sim itself, its how the PR campaign was prematurely delivered that has triggered so much angst.  This left many developers with products they’ve invested considerable money into that will likely not recover the projected income to earn a profit or break even.  It could have been managed much better and all drama could have been avoided, but it wasn’t.

So as with most things its about lost investments/money.

It really has got nothing to do with the new sim itself, that looks to be pretty awesome IMHO.

Cheers, Rob

 

This might explain some hard feelings within the developer community, but not simmers themselves.  In fact, as I mentioned in my OP, I've noted a weird uptick in hostility TOWARDS 3PD add-on makers since the MSFS announcement.

And I also see nothing premature about the announcement or marketing of MSFS.  Video games routinely get announced a year or two before they come out - sometimes even more than that.  MSFS looks to be solidly within that window.  It's only premature, from the unique consideration of the effect it might have on third-party sales.  But in terms of the normal hype build-up for a new game (and yes, I'll ignore the "game vs. sim" debate here), this is pretty standard.

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Hello all,

IF there is a war, hostilities, angst, or whatever you may like to call it, it is among simmers only.  

I have not seen a negative comment by Lockheed Martin nor LM about the new MSFS. In fact, whilst these three (and others) are not running around sharing their technology secrets with one another, I am quite sure that relations between them is at least, amicable. Also, and in contrast to the simmer viewpoint, Austin Myers actually looked forward to the challenges presented by the newcomer(?) and was impressed by what he has seen.  Actually, he predicted a very rosy future for simmer and lots of new tech innovations coming in the next 12 months. I think that is all positive but that positivity is not being translated to the potential lucky simmers who choose to highlight the negatives. There are some, possibly many, negatives but as PWJT8D has said "hobbies cost money" and much of the negativity stems from the costs involved. 

Also bear in mind that MSFS assassins are not going to turn up at your door and force you to buy.  There will be a lot of people who are very happy to stay with what they already have.

In the long term, I do not see a huge number of losses here, Simmers are going to win, Developers will continue to support the three biggies and to a lesser degree maybe,the smaller platforms. The flights sims platforms themselves will continue to grow (My belief) with the new engines allegedly coming to P3D and XPlane. 

As for me, I will probably be a week one (not day one) buyer, but I will also continue to upgrade P3D and XPlane, and I do not really care what the consequences of that are. I suspect, that, that particular boat is pretty crowded.

Regards

Tony

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58 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Sorry but none of the above is accurate.

I love what I see ... this issue is pretty simple.  Developers kept the MS platform alive and their/our rewards was a PR campaign that took us all by surprise ... 6 months later and still nothing delivered.  Timing is key.

Its got nothing to do with the new sim itself, its how the PR campaign was prematurely delivered that has triggered so much angst.  This left many developers with products they’ve invested considerable money into that will likely not recover the projected income to earn a profit or break even.  It could have been managed much better and all drama could have been avoided, but it wasn’t.

So as with most things its about lost investments/money.

It really has got nothing to do with the new sim itself, that looks to be pretty awesome IMHO.

Cheers, Rob

 

Oh please not this again.  So what do you expect them to do?  Announce it on the day it's released? Then suddenly their income has completely dried up on that very day with zero warning.

At least now third party developers have time to transition. The more proximate ones will be getting an sdk well before the sims released.

Microsoft owes these developers nothing.  How they run there business practises and the sims they support is up to them.

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Too many people take it far too seriously. Simple as that.

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David Porrett

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FSW was jumped all over before it had be seen or released, but I do think it`s the way of the virtual world now and can sometimes get toxic.

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