49 minutes ago, KevinAu said:

Like I said multiple times already, any mask will suffice for the general public for a mask mandate. It does not have to be the n95. There is no need for the general public to use n95s. Just something to keep one from spitting and breathing out the disease. We have probably a year and a half to wait for a vaccine to finish development. Until that time, the economy will be weighed down severely, unless there is a mask mandate so that quarantine and social distance restrictions can be lifted. A year and a half is plenty of time for the us, even without utilizing dpa, to manufacture enough basic cloth masks for the population to make a difference in the spread of disease and economic damage.

 

Unfortunately I don't think "any mask" will be sufficient to "get people back to work" and "end the lock down" and for "social distance restrictions to be lifted".... in my opinion.

Wandering around the streets, yes, some protection offered. But I don't think for a second that a simple cloth mask would offer enough protection in the work place. Certainly not enough to encourage the authorities to end the lock down and quarantine.

In the workplace we are mostly in close proximity, touching our basic cloth masks, transferring the infectious organism to surfaces etc. Don't think I'd like to work in an office in those circumstances.

I recall in South Korea they are mostly wearing KF-94 masks, the equivalent of our N95. And yet they are ALSO practising social distancing. 

 

Quote

We have probably a year and a half to wait for a vaccine to finish development. Until that time, the economy will be weighed down severely, unless there is a mask mandate so that quarantine and social distance restrictions can be lifted.

 

That's not how social distancing measures work. It's not about social distancing and lock downs for a year and a half until a vaccine is developed. It's about the same number of people being infected but extending that over a longer period of time to reduce the strain on health services. That doesn't mean we will be in lock down for a year and a half, just long enough to flatten the curve, reduce the peak, protect health services. 

Edited April 8, 20206 yr by martin-w

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

There have been 12,561 deaths due to the virus.  That's 3% of the cases.  So even if you do come down with it you have a 97% chance of surviving it if you live in the United States.

Survival prospects depend on your age and from increasing evidence, on your degree of exposure.

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

But I refuse to sequester myself and alter my habits when I have a 99% chance of NOT contracting it and a very good chance of surviving it if I do.

Statistics are wonderful, but easily misused. Anyone of a similar age to yourself who contracts it, will almost certainly end up in critical care, and they will certainly not have a good chance of surviving it.  If intubation and ventilation is required, within that age group, a majority of them are unlikely to survive.

Of course people are free to risk their own lives, but should not deliberately put others at risk by doing so.

Should you contract the virus, will you decline to take up valuable healthcare resources. I'm not sure if  'Do Not Resuscitate' forms are used in the US.

23 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Unfortunately I don't think "any mask" will be sufficient to "get people back to work" and "end the lock down" and for "social distance restrictions to be lifted".... in my opinion.

Wandering around the streets, yes, some protection offered. But I don't think for a second that a simple cloth mask would offer enough protection in the work place. Certainly not enough to encourage the authorities to end the lock down.

In the workplace we are mostly in close proximity, touching our basic cloth masks, transferring the infectious organism to surfaces etc. Don't think I'd like to work in an office in those circumstances.

I recall in South Korea they are mostly wearing KF-94 masks, the equivalent of our N95. 

 

The cdc recommends using a scarf if nothing else is available. You’re still arguing that since the perfect mask is not a available now, that this is it and forever, nothing can be done nor attempted and there should be no mandate. No. Everybody use a scarf now. In a few weeks everybody use a proper cloth mask. In a few months, everybody gets gold plated N95s. This disease is not going away anytime soon. And unless everybody is masked up, bandana or otherwise, the economy cannot come back. Any, cloth, scarf, n95 will provide some protection to some degree in keeping someone from spitting out, which is really all we are asking for a mask to do in a mask mandate. Until you give the population at least this form of protection in public from a possibly infected person nearby, there is no confidence for people to bring the economy back to life. If there is a requirement, there is a way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/opinion/covid-face-mask-shortage.amp.html

Edited April 8, 20206 yr by KevinAu

39 minutes ago, martin-w said:

That's not how social distancing measures work. It's not about social distancing and lock downs for a year and a half until a vaccine is developed. It's about the same number of people being infected but extending that over a longer period of time to reduce the strain on health services. That doesn't mean we will be in lock down for a year and a half, just long enough to flatten the curve, reduce the peak, protect health services. 

The restrictions will be lifted for sure sometime in may in the us for sure, one way or another, come hell or highwater. But an existence based on a life devoted to continually flattening the curve will continue to hinder the economy. Until there is a vaccine, the quasi herd immunity produced by using masks liberalizes what people have confidence to do. And that will add to gdp. People in Asia had learned this a decade ago, and several of those countries came through this with minimal damage compared to europe and america. And unless westerners, through this pandemic, learn and accept this as well, they are bound to repeat this disaster.

I'm not going back to work if we still have to wear masks. I'm going back to my non-essential job (if I have one) as and when humanity has kicked the virus' backside.

Not a lot of people will agree with me either, but here goes:

Noel lives in somewhere close to Roswell, a small town (relative to some cities in the USA) in the middle of bloody nowhere (NM is MMFD - miles & miles of f.... desert), with a UFO problem.... He's not going to infect me with anything because chances are, living on this tiny island called the UK, I'll get mine from someone only a few miles away.

If we don't like how Noel might go about his daily business, then no worries. No one has to go and visit him. I for one don't begrudge Noel wanting to live out the rest of his life as he wishes (within the law of course, but I don't think he's a criminal at the moment!), I believe he's earned that right in the Land of the Free. It's up to anyone else to avoid HIM, should they so wish, just as people can ignore threads and posts.

One elderly chap on an aviation forum is not the demographic for several million other humans.

In the current climate would it be cynical of me to assume that the staff in an ICU would treat a young person more likely to survive than use resources on an elderly person (apologies, Noel!)?

Noel, I like the idea of extending the leaves on the dining table! 

Sorry to be a bit irritated but once again I've heard on the radio about people dying after "being tested positive for COVID-19". What do they mean? If those people died of COVID-19 then just bloody say so. If they died of chronic pneumonia, heart attack, lung disease, kidney failure, cancer, syphilis, then THAT is what needs to be recorded on the death certificate IMO. 

A comment on social distancing.  I'm not against it but in many places it is impractical.

At the supermarket I got to they have put discs on the floor in the checkout lane six feet apart.  There are three of these per lane.  So if more than three customers are in the lane they spill over into the aisle where they group together and come in contact with shoppers who are still shopping.

Then when you get to the checker you re only a foot or two away from him/her.  And him/her contacts 50-60 people a day.  Your chances of getting the virus from the checkout person are better than from any of your fellow shoppers.

Mark, yes, I live on and island in the middle of the desert.  The closest town to the north is 100 miles away.  To the south 40 miles.  To the east 100 miles.  To the west 70 miles.  And as a small city of about 50,000 most of us are pretty laid back.  I've heard there are a few cases here, mostly from people who have travelled.  Nobody I know has contracted the disease.  Few of us are wearing face masks.  The WalMart and Albertsons market's parking lots are pretty well filled up every day.  The theater is closed as are the restaurants.  My biggest sacrifice so far is not being able to dine out.  I have a friend who owns a restaurant and he told me he will probably lose it if he has to stay closed much longer.

I maintain a distance when practical and ignore it when impractical.  I don't wear a mask because I don't have one and there is no place in town to get one.

And t the person who asked me if a younger person should go into an ICU ahead of me I would say by all means.  I am still a first sergeant (ret) and the welfare of my troops always comes first.  In the chow line they always go first.  And there were times I had to eat sliced bologna when they ran out of roast beef.  But my troops got the beef.  

I am at the edge of the herd and expect to be last in line if I do contract the disease.  That's fine with me.  I've lived a full exciting life having raise three teen age daughters (that was exciting and I would have appreciated social distancing from them from time to time) and survived two wars.  So if I have die of an exciting disease like the coronavirus that's OK too.

However I would like see the aftermath of all this when our economies are on the sewer and the governments have us by the balls.

Noel

Edited April 8, 20206 yr by birdguy

7 minutes ago, birdguy said:

A comment on social distancing.  I'm not against it but in many places it is impractical.

Noel

Exactly. Which is why masks have to be part of the solution. Social distancing impacts the economy. A mask mandate will make up for some of that by allowing a relaxation of some social distancing.

Like I said before, Kevin, issue me a mask and I'll wear it.  Sometimes.

A couple weeks ago I went to the hospital for an ultrasound of my leg.  The guy performing the ultrasound always lowered his mask when he spoke to me.  When he spoke with the mask on it sounded like mumbling because I suffer a hearing loss.  So there are exceptions to wearing a mask.

Noel

Edited April 8, 20206 yr by birdguy

3 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Like I said before, Kevin, issue me a mask and I'll wear it.

Noel

I’m not the government. That’s up to them to issue things. It’s something they should be doing.

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

Unfortunately I don't think "any mask" will be sufficient to "get people back to work" and "end the lock down" and for "social distance restrictions to be lifted".... in my opinion.

What's really required, short of a vaccine, is universally available seriologic testing - that is, blood testing for antibodies, which will show who's been exposed and therefore probably has natural immunity.

Yet another testing goal that we're going to have to find a way to reach.

2 hours ago, HighBypass said:

Sorry to be a bit irritated but once again I've heard on the radio about people dying after "being tested positive for COVID-19". What do they mean? If those people died of COVID-19 then just bloody say so. If they died of chronic pneumonia, heart attack, lung disease, kidney failure, cancer, syphilis, then THAT is what needs to be recorded on the death certificate IMO.

The term is used because it's the only accurate way to describe deaths when referring to a collection of cases. Each case will differ in the way it progresses to eventual death. More details may be reflected on individual death certificates.

The virus kills most people indirectly. It replicates rapidly in the lungs, clogging air sacs and causing hypoxia. The immune system goes into overdrive and pumps white blood cells into the lungs to fight the virus. This increases the hypoxia problem. Doctors have described lungs filling with a white paste. From that point patients start to suffer from cardiac arrest and/or various organ failures, particularly if they had pre existing conditions. Those conditions would not necessarily have been serious or life threatening, but in combination with the effect of the virus, They are.

So the one common factor in these deaths is the virus.

2 hours ago, HighBypass said:

If we don't like how Noel might go about his daily business, then no worries. No one has to go and visit him.

Except the paramedics.

Edited April 8, 20206 yr by Alan_A

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

At the supermarket I got to they have put discs on the floor in the checkout lane six feet apart.  There are three of these per lane.  So if more than three customers are in the lane they spill over into the aisle where they group together and come in contact with shoppers who are still shopping.

Then when you get to the checker you re only a foot or two away from him/her.  And him/her contacts 50-60 people a day.  Your chances of getting the virus from the checkout person are better than from any of your fellow shoppers.

All of the grocery stores around me here in NW Indiana have installed large plastic shields to separate the cashier and the patron, and all store personnel must wear the masks provided by the store.

At the "Food for Less" store chain they have an automated system that tracks people entering and leaving the store, so they can ensure that they never exceed the fire safety limits. Recently however, they've lowered the system's parameters to keep the total number of patrons in the store down to 50% of normal capacity. 

If they reach that limit the entry doors are automatically locked and an employee stands outside to direct the line of people to maintain social distance as they queue up. As soon as the system detects that x number of people have exited, the doors will unlock and the employee will allow new patrons to enter, maintaining their distance. It seems to be working out quite well!

12 minutes ago, Biggles2010 said:

The term is used because it's the only accurate way to describe deaths when referring to a collection of cases. Each case will differ in the way it progresses to eventual death. More details may be reflected on individual death certificates.

Right.  That would show up as "complications related to COVID-19."

That said - there's huge inconsistency in the way tests are being conducted and reported.

The inconsistency is probably leading to large-scale undercounts.

They haven't done anything like that here Fr Bill.  They may get around to it eventually if we get more than the current 16 cases in the county.  And as I understand it most have all been sent to Albuquerque.

My brother is in long term care in a local nursing home.  It's shut down and no visitors are allowed but I spoke to him on the phone yesterday. I asked him about spacing and they don't do it.  They aren't wearing masks either except for nurses assisting disabled patients.  They probably don't have them.

It seems the New Mexico cases are clustered mostly in the Indian Reservation area around Gallup.

Noel