What some of us may be forgetting is the fact that the way in which MS approached Alpha is unprecedented in flight sims. In the past, a developer would wait until Beta before letting the public at large test it. I suspect that we might be getting all wrapped up with the definition of Alpha and Beta. As some have already pointed out, as with X-plane, perennial Beta may be the only way some programs as complex as flight sims can come to market and survive.

We only need to ask ourselves what do we prefer: the very first complete("as real as it gets"), bug free, flight simulator 1982 version, or Flight Simulator 2020("as real as it gets") with needed bug fixes.

tc

 

17 hours ago, edpatino said:

Those who will be buying this right now will be the real beta testers for the following six months. That’s for sure.

Cheers, Ef

So like every other flight sim ever released? Except X-Plane. There you are a beta tester for the next six years.

Trust me, there's enough in the base game to be worth the money even if it takes a while for other things to get ironed out. It's an incredible experience.

Maybe they are holding a lot of updates back, I sure hope so. As of today I am not preordering, maybe the beta will change that. Still way too many questions for how I enjoy using the software and the real value of the premium content.

 

 

21 minutes ago, bonchie said:

 

So like every other flight sim ever released? Except X-Plane. There you are a beta tester for the next six years.

Trust me, there's enough in the base game to be worth the money even if it takes a while for other things to get ironed out. It's an incredible experience.

Not the case with P3D until v4.5 hf2/3. To me, X-Plane seems to be in an endless beta.

Cheers, Ed

5 minutes ago, edpatino said:

Not the case with P3D until v4.5 hf2/3. To me, X-Plane seems to be in an endless beta.

Cheers, Ed

P3D was us basically paying for a new beta every year.

1 hour ago, B777ER said:

Well, it's clear to me they are releasing early whether due to MS marketing demand or some other reason. This leads me to believe one of the items on their wishlist, TrackIR will not make the release. Maybe it will come later but until it does this software is a no go for me. I refuse to use Chaseplane or some stupid hatswitch to pan around in VC. Both of those options are ridiculous. I have a 55in 4k tv at a zoom of .80, TrackIR is the only way to go for me.

You never know it might release with trackIR support. I hope it does. It can’t be that hard to implement it. 

25 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

You never know it might release with trackIR support. I hope it does. It can’t be that hard to implement it. 

I sincerely hope that is the case.

19 hours ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

Why bother with beta testing when your customers will blindly "preorder" the product anyway? Much easier to let your customers do the beta testing after release.

You mean like X-plane with its eternal beta status, or P3D which just leaves stuff broken between their sporadic hotfixes or updates..?

Yeah, that's MUCH better...

Well, it's proven time and time again that flight simmers are really good at eating bugs. They're even happy to throw 150USD/EUR at an unreleased product before even getting to test it.

28 minutes ago, Kopteeni said:

Well, it's proven time and time again that flight simmers are really good at eating bugs. They're even happy to throw 150USD/EUR at an unreleased product before even getting to test it.

In my experience, the more "niche" a gaming product is and the more "elite" its customer base feels, the more these same customers are willing to accept paying premium prices for a product that would have been much better at release if the developers had just given it a few more months of polishing and bug-fixing. 

Maybe it's the feeling that these gaming genres, like flight-sims, but also things like high complexity wargames, are so rare these days that customers "owe" it to the studios to preorder as soon as possible to reward developers for keeping a genre alive.

I don't think MSFS will be a bad game at release, but I see the risk that going for a premature release might result in lower review scores, something that will heavily affect potential sales among the mainstream gaming customers. Flight sim enthusiasts will buy it anyway (me included), but it's the mainstream gamers that will maybe learn to love flight sims with this title, and it would be sad to see them avoiding a purchase because the game feels unfinished at launch.

 

How many post have we seen over the last few months claiming they would pay to be in Alpha. now you get to pay to be in Beta. 

18 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

In my experience, the more "niche" a gaming product is and the more "elite" its customer base feels, the more these same customers are willing to accept paying premium prices for a product that would have been much better at release if the developers had just given it a few more months of polishing and bug-fixing. 

Maybe it's the feeling that these gaming genres, like flight-sims, but also things like high complexity wargames, are so rare these days that customers "owe" it to the studios to preorder as soon as possible to reward developers for keeping a genre alive.

I don't think MSFS will be a bad game at release, but I see the risk that going for a premature release might result in lower review scores, something that will heavily affect potential sales among the mainstream gaming customers. Flight sim enthusiasts will buy it anyway (me included), but it's the mainstream gamers that will maybe learn to love flight sims with this title, and it would be sad to see them avoiding a purchase because the game feels unfinished at launch.

 

Yeah I think you're right, "owing it to the studio" mentality is definately a thing. I thought it would only apply to small studios that need the money to keep the lights on. Apparently it extends quite a bit further than that.

Edited July 14, 20205 yr by Kopteeni

9 hours ago, Kopteeni said:

If I were to collect a mountain of user data from thousands of testers in a software project I would make sure the data is as close to the dev build as possible. Giving Alpha testers an older build and accepting the negative effect it would have on the usage data relevancy just for the sake of having a surprise in launch day just doesn't make any sense at all.

It depends on what you're testing for. If you're mainly using them to stress test servers, etc, then it doesn't matter as much what build you give them.

 

53 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

In my experience, the more "niche" a gaming product is and the more "elite" its customer base feels, the more these same customers are willing to accept paying premium prices for a product that would have been much better at release if the developers had just given it a few more months of polishing and bug-fixing. 

 

It's not that we feel "elite." It's that we recognize that this isn't an MMO or a first-person shooter. This *is* a niche genre (personally I very much wish it were more popular) and niche genres are always more expensive and more exasperating than mainstream ones.

We've been in the nadir of flight simming from both a hardware and software perspective for a very long time now. P3d is an improvement over FSX mainly in that it's actually usable with high-end addons without crashing to desktop. Stock p3d is still 90% the same experience as you got with FSX. And hardware? For a good while there your choices were either craptastic gaming-oriented joysticks that felt cheap and flimsy because they were, or sim hardware that cost as much as a decent used car. There wasn't much middle ground - for awhile there really there was only lackluster offerings from Thrustmaster, and more attractive ones from Saitek/Madcatz/Logitech that would have been pretty good if the quality hadn't been so abysmal. I kept using my old X45 *long* after its past-due date because there just wasn't anything out there to replace it with that was moderately priced and not junk.

 

Now MS is bringing a new sim out, and companies like TM and Honeycomb are bringing out new peripherals that we don't have to take out a mortgage to buy. These are things that we want, and have wanted for a long time now, and we need to support them even if they aren't perfect at launch. Otherwise, the businesses making these products will conclude that it's not worth the investment, and stop making them.

 

 

Edited July 14, 20205 yr by eslader

5 minutes ago, eslader said:

For a good while there your choices were either craptastic gaming-oriented joysticks that felt cheap and flimsy because they were, or sim hardware that cost as much as a decent used car.

I dunno, I had pretty good luck with CH Products.  Not always perfect, but they were solid and professional.

Hook

I don't understand the worrying about bugs and beta and alpha. And the Debbie Downers.

Upon release, I have no doubt this game will be a very playable, enjoyable, and will offer some new, great features. All the feature we want? No, but enough to be worth buying (IMHO).

Will MSFS be bug free? No. But will be it playable? YES. This is not going to be a poor-running, CTD fiasco some people fear. Relax, you will not get 7 years of bad luck if you play it and it has some bugs.

Will MSFS be a step up in FS software to be worthy of buying and playing even if some stuff is not finished/added? I say "YES". 

I am GRATEFUL that's there's another FS being offered. Just look around at the buzz MSFS is generating at other game/tech forums. People are excited when they see the graphics. This is GREAT for this niche game genre!  

Do we owe any company our money? No. But we should do our part to give them INCENTIVES! Otherwise, we will still be waiting for Deadstick (where is that game?), Outerra to become a fs (still waiting after 7 years+), and the other one (AS) that has been playing dead for the last 4 months...or we "happily" keep be satisfied with "under the hood" fixes for p3d and Xplane.  Wow, that's exciting. Forums have people clamoring about buying those two when they hear about "under the hood" improvements...:-)

My thinking: It would be better to play a game now than waiting until when/if it's more polished. Life's too short, why wait?

There are many games out there with bugs, but they are still playable, enjoyable, and gives hours of entertainment. Yet no one is really trying to pitchfork them out of town...We got a new FS in less than a year of announcement, even with corona issue going around (GREAT JOB!!!!!!))

For the cost of 60 dollars at the low end for HUNDREDS of hours of fun and great looking graphics - from what i see.... why are people so down on MSFS. Look at the bright side, and see the beautiful MSFS world!  LOOK AT THOSE BUSH LANDING SITES! 

Last year, there was NO sign of a new MSFS game...WOO HOO!